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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#741

Post by NikolaNovak »

wutbrodo wrote: post #701
tombert wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally. I never committed any violent crimes, but I know throughout most of 2016 I was really really broke (about $15,000 credit card debt, 3 months of unpaid rent, a lawsuit from my landlord for the back rent). In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. My desperate brain…

> In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. Because they're not, the idea that they are is paternalistic bullshit from the kind of people who get their news from John Oliver. Debt can be dangerous, and payday loans are commensurately more so due to their high rates. But debt is a _tool_, and just like middle- and upper-income folks can use…

Having access / option for credit may be a good thing. Using a loan rationally may be a good thing.

Not sure where you get your news/experience from ;), but I don't see how any of those arguments apply to payday loan places - in every country, city, society I've lived in, they a) were shut down for fraud and exploitation anytime anybody bothered to look & investigate b) are universally demonstrated and proven to prey upon those who can least afford it. These are not benevolent capitalists trying to help those who nobody else would help - the owners are shameless sharks exploiting and manipulating people into a vicious cycle.

(FWIW I'm not going to downvote, I actually upvoted - your perspective is interesting and must as I may disagree I'd like to hear more and maybe be educated, rather than shut the debate down; but I'd like to see some "counter-John-Oliver" studies and stats to go against the ones I think most of us have seen)

Edit: I mean heck, like with smoking, government here will try their best to talk you out of it; you can still do it, as an adult human being... but it's just a bad, bad idea

https://www.canada.ca/en/financial-consumer-agency/services/...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#742

Post by bluGill »

bena wrote: post #476
ziml77 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would get threatened with grievances for trivial acts like carrying a single lightbulb myself without a union worker. That whole thing about requiring union workers to do tasks is stupid. One year I was attending a fan convention and decided to check out the rules for vendors. The convention center used unionized labor so one of the rules was that the vendors were limited to carrying like one case of stuff over t…

The problem always comes down to bad actors. If I, as a vendor, could have my people do the work of moving and set up and elect not to use the convention center staff, then there's a way to circumvent the convention center staff and fire them all. You just hire a "vendor" with their own crew to do all the stuff. With no actual work to do, it's justifiable to fire the convention center staff. If people weren't bastard…

Why does a convention center have enough staff to do that setup? That seems wasteful in itself. Sure they need a few janitors to sweep up afterwords, and someone needs to know how to flip a tripped breaker, so they can't be staff free. However the needs of each event are different enough that staff for vendor setup doesn't really make sense.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#743

Post by bradleyjg »

winkeltripel wrote: post #598
bradleyjg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side I wonder how many of the pro union voices I see on Facebook or elsewhere, especially millennials & gen z, have ever worked a union job and seen what a seniority system or non-at-will employment actually looks like in practice. Of the people I know that have direct experience with US unions, even those that ultimately come down on the side of supporting them have lots of stories to illustrate the wart…

With the shrinking fraction of jobs which are unionized, is it really surprising that a younger crowd has no experience with it?

Wouldn’t it behoove people to learning about subject before forming such strong opinions about it? Perhaps by talking to people with direct experience?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#744

Post by macrowhat »

psychometry wrote: post #337
ActorNightly wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA needs better education so that people understand economics and labor markets, so they wont calling paid positions indentured servitude.

We need better education so that people stop voting against their own self-interest, in union elections and generally.

I used to make comments like this when I was young, but then I grew old and gained wisdom instead.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#745

Post by Nasrudith »

tombert wrote: post #664
FearlessNebula wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally. I never committed any violent crimes, but I know throughout most of 2016 I was really really broke (about $15,000 credit card debt, 3 months of unpaid rent, a lawsuit from my landlord for the back rent). In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. My desperate brain…

Sounds like it hints at a nasty feedback loop. "Are they stuck in financial trouble because of poor impulse control or are they stuck with poor impulse control because of financial trouble?" Singular they that is.

It is easier to think long term while feeling secure but not thinking long term can lead to becoming insecure. Not trying to make any moral or blame judgements here - just pondering origins of problems and solutions.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#746

Post by dcolkitt »

yardie wrote: post #689
FearlessNebula wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

Unemployment itself doesn't cause crime, but unemployment and a weak social safety net will definitely cause crime. I've lived in Western Europe countries with absurdly high unemployment rates, to this American, >10%, 25% youth, and I never felt unsafe, mostly. You got a stipend, subsidized housing, and job training. But in the US, unemployment, desperation, and easy access to firearms can be a big problem. BTW, I'm…

Except there are two problems with this theory. One unemployment is just as correlated with crimes of passion as it is crimes of opportunity. There’s no reason why a lack of job training should lead to rape.

Two is that America’s high crime rates well preceded the advent of the modern welfare state. New York had much higher crime than London even in the 19th century at the height of Victorian social Darwinism and Dickensian work houses. If anything the disparity has actually decreased in the post war period.

The short answer is America, and in fact the Western Hemisphere in general, is just a much more violent society at its roots than the Old World.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#747

Post by TechBro8615 »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #531
bradleyjg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side I wonder how many of the pro union voices I see on Facebook or elsewhere, especially millennials & gen z, have ever worked a union job and seen what a seniority system or non-at-will employment actually looks like in practice. Of the people I know that have direct experience with US unions, even those that ultimately come down on the side of supporting them have lots of stories to illustrate the wart…

I've seen what non at-will employment leads to in Europe, and it's pretty good.

Like your smartest citizens leaving to start companies in the US? Restrictive labor laws and high payroll taxes make EU countries an unappealing option for small companies.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#748

Post by NikolaNovak »

cheeze wrote: post #657
zwkrt wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not stupid you’ve just never had to deal with a real actual problem in your life. Unemployment is a cause of or certainly concomitant with having very high stress and a very poor outlook on the future. In a town like Bessemer the thought process is something like “I don’t have a job, I’m not going to get one, I have no money, and this situation is not going to change.” And it’s not just you thinking this, you…

> you’ve just never had to deal with a real actual problem in your life I don't follow how you made that assumption about OP of the comment

Meh; a bit patronizing but I get the point he was trying to make quickly and succinctly - problems are relative; somebody who's been close to a desperate situation WILL have much more of an intuitive/experiential understanding of the issue, options, temptations, emotions, constraints involved.

(noting there's a difference between "I'm a student living with parents, I'd like a job but can't get one so I'm unemployed" and "I have 3 kids and a sickly partner and I'm overdue on rent and I'm unemployed and I have no social/family safety net")

I wouldn't call it "not having a real actual problem" - again, it's relative and so on; but a charitable read as "never been on brink of famine/poverty" may be a good interpretation?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#749

Post by mjevans »

zwkrt wrote: post #639
FearlessNebula wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

You’re not stupid you’ve just never had to deal with a real actual problem in your life. Unemployment is a cause of or certainly concomitant with having very high stress and a very poor outlook on the future. In a town like Bessemer the thought process is something like “I don’t have a job, I’m not going to get one, I have no money, and this situation is not going to change.” And it’s not just you thinking this, you…

No way out either. In a literal sense. There's no national program for helping people relocate to areas where they can have a meaningful job, a home that's affordable to OWN, and hopefully also community as a result. I'm NOT saying it should be forced, I'm saying it should be an option.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#750

Post by VintageCool »

Archio wrote: post #650
u678u wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You conveniently chose one of the wealthiest countries with the highest wages. Here is a more realistic look at monthly min wages across the region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...

>You conveniently chose one of the wealthiest countries Did you know that the United States is the wealthiest country in the world?

It is worth pointing out that Alabama is one of the poorest states in the country (using GDP per capita), along with Mississippi, South Carolina, West Virginia, and Idaho.
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