Live data from Hacker News

Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

wsj.com

701–710 of 1001 posts

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally. I never committed any violent crimes, but I know throughout most of 2016 I was really really broke (about $15,000 credit card debt, 3 months of unpaid rent, a lawsuit from my landlord for the back rent). In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. My desperate brain…

> In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams.

Because they're not, the idea that they are is paternalistic bullshit from the kind of people who get their news from John Oliver.

Debt can be dangerous, and payday loans are commensurately more so due to their high rates. But debt is a _tool_, and just like middle- and upper-income folks can use it to prevent disaster or rationally extend themselves, lower-income people can too. Not having access to credit isn't a _good_ thing per se.

Whenever people have actually bothered to look into the use of payday loans instead of pearl-clutching about how the poor don't know what's good for them, they've found that much of the clientele is making rational decisions. As bad as a high-interest loan sounds to privileged sensibilities, the alternative is often worse. It's just more diffuse and thus easier to ignore.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#702
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. - Health care - Worker protections - Required time off - Sick time - Maternity leave etc. Here its $15. And you're on your fucking own. If you compare it to completely underdeveloped or dictatorial economies... Sure I guess its way better. But the US shouldn't be comparing comparing itself to that. Its like saying "This engineer is horrible, but he's no…

"In Europe" in this case means "Western Europe". I'm pretty sure many would take the $15/hour over the social benefits in say, Bulgaria.

No, it means anywhere in the EU for the most part. For example, EU mandates all member states to give workers at least 4 weeks of paid vacation. Many have 5 or 6 weeks, but 4 is the bare minimum.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

I agree though. If we ever want to have a chance at closing the gap between low and middle classes, then we need a basic income for people making under a certain income. Taking away the hardships of deciding whether to put gas in your car or get groceries isn't a decision someone should have to make. An extra $500-1K per month for those people would make a world of difference and ease a lot of those everyday decision…

It’s ironic that, in a post promoting basic income, you make an error in arithmetic amounting to hundreds of trillions of dollars

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#704
post #437
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA). And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant. K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for an…

Do they get free university with an interest free loan of which they only have to pay 50% and only up to 10,000€ back? And 20+ days vacation days plus 6 weeks paid sick leave plus 18 months job guarantee in case of a longer healing process while being paid 60% of their last wage? Plus 1-2 years unemployment benefits, also at 60% of last wage? Plus 60% paid for up to a year in case of being on furlough during a pandem…

I'll take the lower tax rate, thanks

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#705

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

I had a feeling most people were looking at this as a vote for yes is a vote to close the warehouse. They would never see the benefit of the union because Amazon would just close the whole place down before they let other distribution centers see what a union can do.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#706
post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

Unemployment itself doesn't cause crime, but unemployment and a weak social safety net will definitely cause crime. I've lived in Western Europe countries with absurdly high unemployment rates, to this American, >10%, 25% youth, and I never felt unsafe, mostly. You got a stipend, subsidized housing, and job training. But in the US, unemployment, desperation, and easy access to firearms can be a big problem. BTW, I'm…

As a US native I’ve never had someone threaten to shoot me or show me they were armed to intimidate me. I’m not exactly living a sheltered life either.

I have a few questions, sorry if this sounds like a lot I’m just really curious.

What city are you in where this happens? What are you doing to provoke this kind of behavior? Why haven’t you moved away to somewhere safer?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#707
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few German customers and I also get the impression that their unions seem to work. It seems to be a result of multiple factors: 1. "Mitbestimmung" or co-determination. German workers elect the board of directors. 2. Labor reps vote alongside shareholders 3. Laborers in the same strata form "work councils" and choose reps to bring issues to managers or higher up the chain 4. "Betriebsverfassungsgesetz" federa…

VW TN was offered a works council deal and they still voted it down.

Works council is kinda pointless without the other things

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#708
post #643
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America's "Rust Belt" cities all tend to have one thing in common: a large black population that originally migrated there in the 20th century for industrial jobs that largely no longer exist. Think Detroit with the auto industry. Camden NJ with New York Ship, Victor, and Campbell's Soup. Gary Indiana with US Steel, etc etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_(Afric…

> America's "Rust Belt" cities all tend to have one thing in common Not anti union, but these also had high union activity, which some explain as a cause of their 'rustification' as companies moved production elsewhere (like Alabama) to avoid.

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Negro_Labor_Council

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Negro_Labor_Congress

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Revolutionary_Black_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Revolutionary_Union_Move...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_Black_Trade_Union...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Brotherhood_of_Worker...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Sleeping_Car_Po... (See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Commission_v._Pullman.... )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_of_R...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro_Actors_Guild_of_America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro_Labor_Committee

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#709
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think reasons will vary, and I didn’t vote in this event. But in previous situations I’ve not supported unionization due to how it favored existing workers in ways I thought were unfair in that all layoffs were due to seniority not performance so older workers would be kept and younger workers laid off, no matter what. It also established more rigid pay levels that were better on average but not as good for high pe…

Thank you for the explanation. Those are viewpoints that I have not encountered or considered. That makes sense. >To a lesser extent, I didn’t like the idea of union leadership who were paid for things I didn’t think added value. Can you expand on this point, please? >So my overall take was that it was good if you were in the union and employed, but was much harder to get work and join the union. That makes a ton of…

Regarding union leadership, there are union employees who are paid out of dues. My experience with them was similar to a pointy-haired boss in that they were not very helpful and it was frustrating to know that my dues would pay for these individuals to just exist and not produce value.

It may not be rational as maybe they did great stuff and I couldn’t see their value, but I would see them get high salaries compared to workers and serve in positions for very long terms.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally. I never committed any violent crimes, but I know throughout most of 2016 I was really really broke (about $15,000 credit card debt, 3 months of unpaid rent, a lawsuit from my landlord for the back rent). In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. My desperate brain…

Thanks for the honest story, congrats on pulling yourself out of debt and into (quoting you) privileged life.

I see the HN crowd as rather monotonic, and thanks to stories like yours, it shows me wrong, and that’s for the best.

Post reply on HN