Wasn't even close. NLRB official results: [1]
[1] https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-announces...
Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
691–700 of 1001 posts
Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
#692Earlier quoted context omitted.
What would Amazon do if they did Unionize? Move the warehouse?
Possible. As others have noted, WalMart has done similar things. I think a retail/warehouse workers' union only really works if it's a national sort with local chapters so that a company can't hire except through a union. I'm not saying such a situation isn't rife with its own problems, but as long as these unions are essentially on a per-location basis, a company with the resources can always close one location and…
Unions need several things to work: two of the big ones are a job such that you cannot replace someone easily; and a sense that "we are all in it together".
If you don't have the first it is easy to replace anyone striking, and the union doesn't have power. If you don't have the second the better employees will want more money and so they won't work with the lesser ones
In retail it is generally easy to replace people. It only takes a few minutes of training and the new person will figure it out.
In retail there are a lot of different jobs. People who can do more (and have been around longer) are worth more. Many of the jobs do have metrics that can be measured to say who is better. While the pay this results in isn't much more, it is enough.
That isn't to say you need the above to have a union. There are counter examples that work, but they are less powerful than unions that have those factors because they find it harder to get everyone to stand together.
As such retail unions have trouble working. It is too easy to hire someone else if they go on strike.
Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
#693Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's important to consider the state of the whole system, not just the direction of the change. "helps insiders and hurts everyone else" sounds bad, but if the insiders are being exploited by everyone else, it could be a good thing. In general I'm sympathetic to your point. However I think Amazon is perhaps a special case, or at least occupies a different point on the than most companies. Amazon is an Aggrega…
I don't think you can definitively state that they are great for consumers. When I buy something from debenhams, I know there is going to be a certain level of quality. Amazon is like a dump of products, most reviews are fake, the description of a monitor has different resolution in heading and it's body, a friend of mine bought an electric kettle with a thermometer and temperature control that, when set to 100, boil…
And yet, consumers love Amazon, e.g. https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/amazon-favorable-tech....
The meme "Amazon is a dumpster fire of counterfeit goods and fake reviews" is popular around here, but I don't think it has much impact/traction with John/Jane MainStreet.
Maybe it would if it was better-known? But I think if folks found counterfeit goods or fake reviews to be a huge problem they would go back to Debenhams/Walmart. But by revealed preferences, we can tell they prefer the value prop of Amazon.
Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
#694Earlier quoted context omitted.
We need better education so that people stop voting against their own self-interest, in union elections and generally.
...or maybe they just have differences in opinion to you?
That's entirely possible, and very likely. However, that does not do away with rationality completely. For some given situations, with data on the situation and a set of options, we can deduce pretty quickly what is rational to do, what is right to do, and what is in one's interest to do. This is how we (and that includes me and you) are able to criticize people on those grounds all the time. If someone is poor and has a choice between buying a stereo system and saving the money in a high-interest bank account, I doubt you'd have any problem saying that it's in their self interest to do one of those options and not the other. Economists talk about the principles of economic rationality all the time.
So yeah, you can have your own opinion. That doesn't mean that the opinion is beyond criticism, nor does it mean it's a rational thought out opinion from all points of view, considering all the facts.
Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
#695Earlier quoted context omitted.
$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?
While that might be right,You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare & education.
> You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare
Single payer health care is not necessary 'free'. Here in Czechia one pays mandatory 'health tax/insurance' in addition to regular income tax. But still (IMHO) better than US system.
Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
#696Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. - Health care - Worker protections - Required time off - Sick time - Maternity leave etc. Here its $15. And you're on your fucking own. If you compare it to completely underdeveloped or dictatorial economies... Sure I guess its way better. But the US shouldn't be comparing comparing itself to that. Its like saying "This engineer is horrible, but he's no…
Does Amazon not provide health care to their workers? https://www.amazondelivers.jobs/about/benefits/
“Are there no workhouses?”
Such a difference between talking about working at a warehouse from the outside vs being born into a life that traps you there.
I think HN struggles with topics like unionisation because most of us have just never been at the bottom of society without a way out. We’re relatively rich and so highly skilled - we lucked out to be nerds in a world of tech, perhaps due to timing or perhaps because our parents were wealthy enough to put us here.
It’s the same phenomena of loving Uber or Airbnb and not understanding the cost to others.
I don’t know how to solve this problem. I don’t personally want to go work at an Amazon warehouse so I can see how awful it is. I work damn hard but I know how lucky I must be.
How do you get the rich to realise that the poor are simply, by definition, less fortunate?
Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
#697HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…
Mine is experience working in an union. I generally really disliked the effects of the union and saw no benefit to me at all. My career progression was capped, lots of nepotism (eg manager holding a position for his son), people are generally coasting etc.
I absolutely abhor being passed up due to nepotism, it’s incredibly frustrating.
When that sort of thing happens it makes me wish that there was a clear agreement between management and employees that codified when/how/why promotions happen so that people who have worked hard and performed well would be favored. It’s really awful that that union precluded that from happening.
Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
#698Earlier quoted context omitted.
You’re not stupid you’ve just never had to deal with a real actual problem in your life. Unemployment is a cause of or certainly concomitant with having very high stress and a very poor outlook on the future. In a town like Bessemer the thought process is something like “I don’t have a job, I’m not going to get one, I have no money, and this situation is not going to change.” And it’s not just you thinking this, you…
> you’ve just never had to deal with a real actual problem in your life I don't follow how you made that assumption about OP of the comment
You wouldn’t ask that question if you had.
Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
#699Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wow, you're not kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer,_Alabama#Economy "Crime increased following the rise in unemployment and social disruption from the decline of manufacturing industries in the area. As of 2019 Bessemer ranks first in terms of violent crimes for US cities with 25,000 or more people." Population has fallen from its peak in 1970 of 33k to 26k today. Thanks for the reference. EDIT: Also hom…
I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?
When people don't have legally acquired money to exchange for things they need like food, they turn to other means to acquire those things.
Also when people believe that they can't, by legal and socially acceptable means, thrive, their belief in the current social order is undermined. A lot of society operates on trust in fundamental fairness; for people who find that life is fundamentally unfair, that trust is eroded, sometimes permanently.
Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama
#700Earlier quoted context omitted.
So, you're implying the 11 union decertification petitions in the link I provided are fake or something?
11 union decertifications since 2009 is 1 per year. That's fine, great, people should decertify their union if it's corrupt or their needs change or whatever. There's a separate point about 'unionfacts.com' with a bunch of anti-union stories on their website clearly being a propaganda op.
I don't know anything about the "stories" you're referring to, but the website I linked to also provides data on the Retail, Wholesale, and Department Store Union's:
1. Basic info (including membership, which has significantly fallen in recent years) -- https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa... 2. Leaders and salaries (they seem to be well-paid) -- https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa... 3. Crime and corruption (are they more/less corrupt than an average union?) -- https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa...
... And so on.
If the data is incorrect, then there's reason to object to linking to the website. Is the data incorrect?
Is there a "pro-union" website that provides/aggregates the same data?