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Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#81
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Answer is yes. But some still make money from it and have lobbyists running in circles around politicians. So prolly not much will happen. In the mean while: just eat plants directly.

This doesn't really fly unfortunately. Eat vegan/vegetarian and you will have a minimal impact, that is what you see/hear everywhere. But in the meanwhile these new vegan/vegetarian companies are a huge cause of the deforestation of the Amazon [1]. The amount of vegan/vegetarian food necessary to actually get the same amount of nutrients are on a different planet and simple math shows that it wouldn't even work if we…

> Eat vegan/vegetarian and you will have a minimal impact

This is mostly true. You could maybe have a "mostly rice + meat once a month diet" that has less impact than a vegan diet rich in Impossible/Beyond meat and avocados. But apart from comparisons of "outliers" this statement true.

> But in the meanwhile these new vegan/vegetarian companies are a huge cause of the deforestation of the Amazon [1]

Might be so, but nothing close to what is needed for real beef. They say some forest is cut for soy, so soy is bad, and vegans (plant eaters) eat soy, so vegans are bad. Well, beef was a cow, and cows eat by far most of the soy on this planet. So "fake meat" is not compared to the alternative "meat" (they just point out something unsustainable about fake meat in isolation). Just an example: to produce one beef meat burger patty enough water is used that one could shower for 3 months 24/7. When it comes to "impact" (as you call it) it does not get much worse than red meat.

A big fallacy in your argument is that all vegans would eat massive amounts of "new vegan/vegetarian company" products: they dont. We (yes im vegan) eat a lot of lentils, soy (tofu/tempeh), sweat potatoes, veggies, etc. As a group we are MUCH less impact for for the environment, simply because it is so inefficient to feed plants to animals only to have a less shelf stable product (meat), and lots of waste (bones, feathers, some organs, consciousness of sentient beings, etc).

Please be vegan while we bring this wasteful industry to its knees. It's time.

Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see both sides. I appreciate these documentaries for raising awareness as you said. The reason why experts don't "try to explain it to us" probably is exactly because they think it's complex and nuanced. They probably don't even think there is an "issue" that need to be explained to begin with. Think it this way: you're in a field, and you know its pros and cons. You are not going to randomly speak anything abo…

This is the problem I have with climate change. I am a very rational, science oriented person (actively promoting science, atheist, PhD in physics, actively hating homeopathy pseudo-science, you name it). I wanted to understand: - why there is a problem with climete chnage - how we know there is one - my winter was cold, where is the warming (exaggerating that of course) - etc. I am not an expert, nor want to become…

We observe climate change today via direct measurement. We have extremely accurate temperature sensors placed around the world and see the temperature rising. We can measure temperatures from the past with proxies.

The explanation for the change in temperature that has by far the best evidence is the increase in greenhouse gas concentration in the atmosphere. We can derive this from physics principles and test it by examining CO2 concentration and temperature over long periods of time. CO2 concentration increases are coming from human emissions. This can be proven by examining isotope ratios in the CO2 in the atmosphere. Once we have this connection established, we can estimate future CO2 emissions and run models to predict future temperatures.

Rising temperatures are bad for a number of reasons

1. Certain staple crops are fragile and rising temperatures may turn highly populated regions into places where it is difficult to grow enough food to feed the population.

2. Sea ice melt increases water levels, threatening coastal cities and reducing global albedo.

3. Certain macro weather patterns like the gulf stream are found to be unstable in models if we increase the temperature. This has big problems for places like Europe, which are made warmer than their latitude would suggest by these macro weather patterns. A similar situation occurs in California where the RRR breakup allows for wet winters and if it fails to break up (more common in higher temperatures) then we get bad droughts in CA. This effect also contributes to the polar vortex that causes major cold snaps over the central US.

Changes in these macro patterns are what enable the sort of "my winter was cold, where is the warming" effects.

Human beings could adjust where we live and grow crops to account for rising temperatures. But this is massively expensive and disruptive and does not work well in a world where state borders are fixed on a map. This "solution" is not especially viable.

4. There are some hypotheses that increasing temperatures can cause an unstoppable positive feedback loop, as lower albedo means we absorb more sunlight and releasing gasses trapped in ice means that greenhouse gas concentration will increase even if human emissions drop to zero once we are past some tipping point. These are not proven hypotheses, but they are worth considering.

Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morality is relative; please don't inflict yours on others. Animal consumption can be made sustainable. The main offenders are beef, lamb, and mutton, and their associated dairy[1]. Cutting just those out would put us back in the ballpark of responsible agriculture. Between pork, poultry, fish & other aquatics, and insects, there's room for sustainable meat farming. [1]: https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impac…

>Morality is relative, please don't inflict yours on others. Suffering is not relative. “It just isn't possible to mass produce meat without torturing animals. In fact, raising animals specifically for consumption, i.e., “humane slaughter” is an oxymoron.” — https://www.cynicusrex.com/file/cynic.html

I'm sympathetic to your point of view - but suffering must be relative or you would be concerned about the worms in a construction site or the bacteria you kill with bleach. There must be a spectrum of consciousness and perhaps there is a line where suffering begins, and is that not anything but relative?

Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#84
> many communities depend on fishing for their livelihoods and for food

The film was pretty sympathetic to those communities. In particular, coastal Africans, who depended on local fish for food, and now are in trouble because industrial fishing operations are vacuuming up those fish.

The main point of disagreement in the article is the study about 2048. It's good news that the future might not be quite so imminently grim, but the film doesn't lean on the study all that much. For the other claims mentioned in the article, it says the film was pretty accurate.

So contrary to Betteridge's law, it appears the answer to the question is "mostly yes."

Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#85
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Answer is yes. But some still make money from it and have lobbyists running in circles around politicians. So prolly not much will happen. In the mean while: just eat plants directly.

This doesn't really fly unfortunately. Eat vegan/vegetarian and you will have a minimal impact, that is what you see/hear everywhere. But in the meanwhile these new vegan/vegetarian companies are a huge cause of the deforestation of the Amazon [1]. The amount of vegan/vegetarian food necessary to actually get the same amount of nutrients are on a different planet and simple math shows that it wouldn't even work if we…

A lot of land is used to grow crops to feed to farm animals.

On top of that the huge amount of water required for this whole operation.

It's much more efficient to use the land to grow crops / plants which we can eat.

---

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-01-new-estimates-environme...

https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2019/05/natur...

Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#86
post #78
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, in essence, the crux of the problem. With your level of education it shouldn't be at all difficult to find a resource that answers your questions. Instead you've sought out two comic strips and two extremely ideological sources. The basics of climate change can be taught standing on one foot. Carbon dioxide absorbs IR radiation, while oxygen and nitrogen are transparent to it. There was an equilibrium betwee…

Part of the problem is some climate change deniers openly accept that having more CO2 will heat the earth but also say that having more CO2 in the air will "green" the Earth. This is true in a sense - plants need CO2 - but it doesn't account for the horrible side effects of rapidly shifting the planets atmosphere.

Sure. As if CO2 were the limiting factor in photosynthesis, which it isn't. But that's OK, because they don't really care about being right. They'll just shift on to the next argument, even if it's contradictory to the ones they're already using. That's how a Gish Gallop works.

You can just point them at https://skepticalscience.com/oneliners.php for a lengthy list of the arguments they're going to use and the trivial reasons why they're wrong, but it doesn't get at the core of the problem: you can't reason somebody out of a place they didn't reason themselves into.

Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#87
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fish raised in a fish farm is reasonably sustainable, especially those raised in lakes.

Unfortunately humans like to eat predatory fish - salmon, tuna, etc. So although farming would be a way forward most farming needs large-scale industrial fishing to support it. The pet food industry also has the same problem. Moving farming to vegetarian species like tilapia would solve this but it's going to take a monumental effort to change the attitudes of generations.

Does that imply that some tilapia is raised sustainably? I can live with tilapia. I'd like herring or sardines better, are they low enough in the food chain to harvest sustainably? I can't handle vegan though, I'll switch to cannibalism before trying that again.

Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#88
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem I have with climate change. I am a very rational, science oriented person (actively promoting science, atheist, PhD in physics, actively hating homeopathy pseudo-science, you name it). I wanted to understand: - why there is a problem with climete chnage - how we know there is one - my winter was cold, where is the warming (exaggerating that of course) - etc. I am not an expert, nor want to become…

This is, in essence, the crux of the problem. With your level of education it shouldn't be at all difficult to find a resource that answers your questions. Instead you've sought out two comic strips and two extremely ideological sources. The basics of climate change can be taught standing on one foot. Carbon dioxide absorbs IR radiation, while oxygen and nitrogen are transparent to it. There was an equilibrium betwee…

OK, I see that the "you are dumb" argument is towards me now.

I know that cigarettes are bad for my lungs and for my heart. How do I know that? Because I can read ONE COMMON OPINION everywhere. All the time. Nobody claims it is good.

Global warming? I hear everything pro and con and then more.

Your answer is essentially: go learn something because it is true.

The funny part? I know very well this is true. How? Where to look for the ELI5 version? No idea.

Suppose one moment you are not an expert in quantum mechanics, especially the multiverse model. Out of your head, where are you going to go to learn about that? Wikipedia? OK, let's see the "Scientific consensus and society" part for global warming. Lines and lines of explanation that all scientists say it is true.

Do you see something like that elsewhere? No? So it means that the topic is far, far from being obvious and that we should have a good campaign, oriented to normal people such as myself (and not erudits such as you) to explain it clearly. I live in France and I have not seen one such campaign.

So much for awareness.

Your position is exactly what drives people away from science: "With your level of education it shouldn't be at all difficult to find a resource that answers your questions. Instead you've sought out two comic strips and two extremely ideological sources.", "Again, this has all been said thousands of times. If it helps to have somebody explain it to you, great." etc.

Have you ever taught others? Well I did for years and telling them "you dumb people, you should know this so move your ass and learn" is not going to help.

Of course I (as in me personally) know how global warming works. My neighbours do not. Because what they hear is "you should know because it is simple"

You say you are frustrated. I spent 30 years pushing science into the head of people, either willingly or not (-I mean the receivers of the science :)). I fought pseudo science. I tried to teach what I knew.

I am not a specialist in climate and my understanding is a bit above your "this is very simple" part (I would add the physics and the complexity of simulations in the "I get that" part). But I am not equipped to evangelize the topic. And I see that other are not either because I did not hear about it eanough so that it is obvious fore everyone listening.

Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem I have with climate change. I am a very rational, science oriented person (actively promoting science, atheist, PhD in physics, actively hating homeopathy pseudo-science, you name it). I wanted to understand: - why there is a problem with climete chnage - how we know there is one - my winter was cold, where is the warming (exaggerating that of course) - etc. I am not an expert, nor want to become…

It's quite simple, and I'm surprised you have not heard this before (it's taught to school children where I live in the UK), but: - We were alerted to a potential climate change issue by the melting of glaciers and sea ice amongst other things. - If this continues such that large quantities of ice melts then this will cause large problems as low-lying cities (such as New Orleans) and even whole countries (such the Ne…

Thanks, I should have been more explicit making my point. Please see my other comment in that thread.

Re: Is Netflix's Seaspiracy film right about fishing damaging oceans?

#90
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Answer is yes. But some still make money from it and have lobbyists running in circles around politicians. So prolly not much will happen. In the mean while: just eat plants directly.

This doesn't really fly unfortunately. Eat vegan/vegetarian and you will have a minimal impact, that is what you see/hear everywhere. But in the meanwhile these new vegan/vegetarian companies are a huge cause of the deforestation of the Amazon [1]. The amount of vegan/vegetarian food necessary to actually get the same amount of nutrients are on a different planet and simple math shows that it wouldn't even work if we…

i feel like every week i'm told some new thing is why we are taking down rain forests.

is it for beef cattle? palm oil? vegetables? lumber?

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