New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity • Hacker News Board

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#41

Post by coolspot » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #26

coolspot wrote: post #17

I think that the Game theory suggests that cops will be less inclined to show up to a call or do anything to fight crime, because it could bring too much legal responsibility. Eat donuts, ignore the radio and you will be fine.

> cops will be less inclined to show up to a call or do anything to fight crime, because it could bring too much legal responsibility Police report to elected governments. They are checked the same way the rest of the state is: through elections. Police pay is high across America because they're widely seen as bringing value to the community. Their strikes are feared by politicians; the cops turning on the mayor sign…

I am not sure you are familiar with usual clientele of law enforcement officer, but usual day-to-day interactions are not nice.

You will have to use violence, because nice obedient people don’t cause trouble. People that cops are called on will likely fight and resist and you will have a high chance of breaking someone’s bones (or kill someone).

So, a rational cop can just avoid risky situations by doing absolute minimum and not showing up or not engaging.

Drug addict trashes a store that didn’t accept his fake dollar bill? Whatever, just yell “sir please stop” from distance and leave.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#42

Post by adgjlsfhk1 » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #33

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step #1 is get rid of cop unions. They look out for the worst of the worst, and prevent anything from improving.

getting rid of unions is also a problem, maybe limit the powers of public service unions. They are allowed to work for pension increase, wages, vacation time, but not allowed to touch disciplinary situations?

Police unions are much worse than other public unions. If other public unions take illegal action, the police can arrest them. When the police union does something illegal, no one is going to do anything about it.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#43

Post by ddingus » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:57 AM UTC

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #10

I don't know why anyone would want to be a police officer. There's no upside. Aside from the genuine affection they get from the people they help here and there. Given the nature of their job, it seems like there would be too much personal risk to get involved in any kind of physical altercation with the public. Because if you get in a fight, I mean a real fight, you better be ready to fight-to-win. Because there's a…

They do get paid well. Policing is generally a family income type job. Those are increasingly difficult to come by.

Good policing = a better society to live in.

Regarding risks:

A return to robust and inclusive deescalation and related situational awareness, people awareness training can pack a big punch, as can having multiple avenues of response.

Perhaps that flying high person is better met by others, not necessarily police.

We can, and should, improve on the currently poor balance of income vs cost and risk exposure. Lots of ways to that, and putting a bunch of people to work cleaning up, repairing and enhancing our infrastructure would be top of my list.

Stronger requirements for police to be from and or parr of the community they police can cut a lot of risk too. This also can improve reward as well as respect and consideration. All these things go a long way.

Frankly, we could pay them more and invest in them more and get better policing as well as a lower risk for those police.

In my town, we just hired new officers. The difference between them and the ones either leaving or who are long into their careers is striking.

The training and overall readiness for all aspects of the job are not so well aligned as they have been in the past.

Better policy = lower risk too. The war on drugs has been particularly brutal all around. It would be great to see those risks taken for better, more mutually agreed upon rewards.

In simple terms: policing is an investment that can deliver great returns

Or... not, and a lot of that is on us, as a people, as it is on the officers.

Some people, well adapted to, or whose basic nature aligns with the job may feel very differently about what "upside" means too.

You are not fundementally wrong. It can range from OK to pretty grim.

A lot can be done. We need to have police people open to it, educating people as much as we ourselves need to be open to it, educating people.

The basic want of a better, safer, appropriately secure, helpful place to live is reason to sign up just as thuggery can be.

We can work on that too. Hiring criteria, bigger and more inclusive, robust training is a big part of seeing policing improve.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#44

Post by michaelbuckbee » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:57 AM UTC

CA0DA wrote: post #3

> recover damages from the government when their constitutional rights are violated Great, so I'm paying for the sins of crappy cops via my taxes. Do I have an ability to influence my city or state to not hire unethical cops? (serious question)

One proposed tactic has been that either cops need to hold individual "malpractice" insurance (like doctors) or that settlements need to come out of the union retirement fund.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#45

Post by jshen » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:01 AM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #40

The purpose of qualified immunity is to permit officials to carry out their discretionary duties without fear of personal liability or harassing litigation. It applies to all parts of government. Didn't get the building permit for your kids horse barn? Sue the planning commission members individually. Animal control writes you a citation for Puddles not being on a leash? Unleash the lawyers. Health department gave yo…

So a police offer that kills someone will at worst be fired?

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#46

Post by enraged_camel » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:02 AM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #40

The purpose of qualified immunity is to permit officials to carry out their discretionary duties without fear of personal liability or harassing litigation. It applies to all parts of government. Didn't get the building permit for your kids horse barn? Sue the planning commission members individually. Animal control writes you a citation for Puddles not being on a leash? Unleash the lawyers. Health department gave yo…

>> It applies to all parts of government.

No, you are talking about something else, which is called sovereign immunity.

Qualified immunity is a dumb concept the courts made up to protect police officers.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#47

Post by wahern » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:02 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #35

wahern wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated at the federal level, but in this case the bill abolishes qualified immunity when suing New Mexico officials in New Mexico courts for violations of New Mexico law. Presumably New Mexico courts adopted the federal concept of qualified immunity at some point. See https://www.nmlegis.gov/Sessions/21%20Regular/bills/house/HB... You usually sue state officials under Federal law when a state doesn't p…

I can't imagine anyone arguing against Miranda rights, the right to appointed council when you can't afford one, etc. Can you think of a single good reason these shouldn't exist? Whichever rather liberal supreme court that was let's get them back ASAP!

I think they make sense, but they're definitely not explicitly or even implicitly granted in the U.S. constitution, and the various legal theories (e.g. substantive due process) behind the court's power to recognize them are still vilified by conservative jurists and pundits.

Miranda Rights had historical precedence in England, but IIRC mostly after America forked.

The right to counsel mentioned in the U.S. Bill of Rights only meant you had a right to be represented by your own attorney, presuming you had the means, not that the state or court had to provide one.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#48

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:05 AM UTC

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #10

I don't know why anyone would want to be a police officer. There's no upside. Aside from the genuine affection they get from the people they help here and there. Given the nature of their job, it seems like there would be too much personal risk to get involved in any kind of physical altercation with the public. Because if you get in a fight, I mean a real fight, you better be ready to fight-to-win. Because there's a…

Because there's a good chance that the meth'd out junkie you're fighting

Arguing from stereotypes isn't helpful.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#49

Post by adamsvystun » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #40

The purpose of qualified immunity is to permit officials to carry out their discretionary duties without fear of personal liability or harassing litigation. It applies to all parts of government. Didn't get the building permit for your kids horse barn? Sue the planning commission members individually. Animal control writes you a citation for Puddles not being on a leash? Unleash the lawyers. Health department gave yo…

Isn't qualified immunity applies only to police? If not, then the solution should be to end qualified immunity for police only. There is a difference between health department inspector and police officer, no reason to apply the same standards in both cases.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#50

Post by joosters » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #25

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #2

I thought that because QI was defended by the SCOTUS, that even if a state doesn't have QI at all, a police officer or department sued for malpractice could still appeal to the SCOTUS and then eventually win?

It's more complicated at the federal level, but in this case the bill abolishes qualified immunity when suing New Mexico officials in New Mexico courts for violations of New Mexico law. Presumably New Mexico courts adopted the federal concept of qualified immunity at some point. See https://www.nmlegis.gov/Sessions/21%20Regular/bills/house/HB... You usually sue state officials under Federal law when a state doesn't p…

Isn't it more accurately called 'Miranda warning'? The point is, there are no new rights being granted, the notification is merely informing someone of their existing rights. The fifth amendment was ratified back in 1791.