New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity • Hacker News Board

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#31

Post by coolspot » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:47 AM UTC

upbeat_general wrote: post #27

coolspot wrote: post #17

I think that the Game theory suggests that cops will be less inclined to show up to a call or do anything to fight crime, because it could bring too much legal responsibility. Eat donuts, ignore the radio and you will be fine.

Except that it’s their job to do so. It’s relatively trivial to check what a police officer is doing if the department cares. Doctors can be sued for malpractice yet they still perform operations.

But cost of healthcare is astronomical in part because malpractice insurance is expensive, because too many people abuse it.

If we increase (already high) risk of being a cop, then we will have to be ready to pay 200k-300k salaries.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#32

Post by coolspot » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:48 AM UTC

bigiain wrote: post #20

coolspot wrote: post #17

I think that the Game theory suggests that cops will be less inclined to show up to a call or do anything to fight crime, because it could bring too much legal responsibility. Eat donuts, ignore the radio and you will be fine.

That might actually be a win overall...

I invite you to peaceful evening walk through Venice Beach, CA.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#33

Post by bryanrasmussen » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:48 AM UTC

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #28

CA0DA wrote: post #3

> recover damages from the government when their constitutional rights are violated Great, so I'm paying for the sins of crappy cops via my taxes. Do I have an ability to influence my city or state to not hire unethical cops? (serious question)

Step #1 is get rid of cop unions. They look out for the worst of the worst, and prevent anything from improving.

getting rid of unions is also a problem, maybe limit the powers of public service unions.

They are allowed to work for pension increase, wages, vacation time, but not allowed to touch disciplinary situations?

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#34

Post by unanswered » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

fitblipper wrote: post #13

CA0DA wrote: post #3

> recover damages from the government when their constitutional rights are violated Great, so I'm paying for the sins of crappy cops via my taxes. Do I have an ability to influence my city or state to not hire unethical cops? (serious question)

Only in a very limited capacity, I guess. IMO the important result of this legislation is that it helps align the incentives of the police department with that of the public they are supposed to serve. That means a department will be more likely to reform practices and policies which would cause frequent lawsuits instead of simply instituting policies to optimize for arrests or convictions. Asset forfeiture is anothe…

How does spending a greater amount of other people's money incentivize a police department or any other public body?

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#35

Post by arcticbull » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #25

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #2

I thought that because QI was defended by the SCOTUS, that even if a state doesn't have QI at all, a police officer or department sued for malpractice could still appeal to the SCOTUS and then eventually win?

It's more complicated at the federal level, but in this case the bill abolishes qualified immunity when suing New Mexico officials in New Mexico courts for violations of New Mexico law. Presumably New Mexico courts adopted the federal concept of qualified immunity at some point. See https://www.nmlegis.gov/Sessions/21%20Regular/bills/house/HB... You usually sue state officials under Federal law when a state doesn't p…

I can't imagine anyone arguing against Miranda rights, the right to appointed council when you can't afford one, etc. Can you think of a single good reason these shouldn't exist?

Whichever rather liberal supreme court that was let's get them back ASAP!

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#36

Post by refurb » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:52 AM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #14

> “Qualified immunity is a court-created doctrine that allows public officials to escape accountability after they engage in misconduct, even when their actions send an innocent person to prison. I know this is likely impossible.. but I'd love to see prosecutors/law enforcement have to serve out the sentence or someone they convicted via misconduct. Withhold or manufacture evidence to push for a 10 year sentence? Sur…

That seems like a fun “karmic justice” ideas but it will just end up like the “3 strikes law” where some person gets life in prison for a relatively minor error.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#37

Post by arcticbull » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #10

I don't know why anyone would want to be a police officer. There's no upside. Aside from the genuine affection they get from the people they help here and there. Given the nature of their job, it seems like there would be too much personal risk to get involved in any kind of physical altercation with the public. Because if you get in a fight, I mean a real fight, you better be ready to fight-to-win. Because there's a…

Police officers actually don't have particularly risky jobs.

In this list based on BLS data [1] it makes #22 behind crane workers, delivery drivers and crossing guards. Important work? Definitely. It's not logging, though - not even close.

[1] https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-j...

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#38

Post by katbyte » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

coolspot wrote: post #17

I think that the Game theory suggests that cops will be less inclined to show up to a call or do anything to fight crime, because it could bring too much legal responsibility. Eat donuts, ignore the radio and you will be fine.

the cops who worry about this are the ones we don't want to be cops. Its like my male friends who complained about the MeToo movement "how will i date when i have to worry about consent" - uh shouldn't you already be confident theres consent before doing anything? lol

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#39

Post by adgjlsfhk1 » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #36

caseysoftware wrote: post #14

> “Qualified immunity is a court-created doctrine that allows public officials to escape accountability after they engage in misconduct, even when their actions send an innocent person to prison. I know this is likely impossible.. but I'd love to see prosecutors/law enforcement have to serve out the sentence or someone they convicted via misconduct. Withhold or manufacture evidence to push for a 10 year sentence? Sur…

That seems like a fun “karmic justice” ideas but it will just end up like the “3 strikes law” where some person gets life in prison for a relatively minor error.

If you make an error that ends up with someone else spending life in prison, it's not a minor error.

Re: New Mexico is the second state to ban qualified immunity

#40

Post by mike_d » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

The purpose of qualified immunity is to permit officials to carry out their discretionary duties without fear of personal liability or harassing litigation.

It applies to all parts of government. Didn't get the building permit for your kids horse barn? Sue the planning commission members individually. Animal control writes you a citation for Puddles not being on a leash? Unleash the lawyers. Health department gave your wine bar a bad rating? Sue the inspector personally.

The way to fix policing isn't by making the rest of government worse. Reform unions for employees of the people. Create independent civilian oversight boards with the teeth to suspend and terminate. Invest more in mental health and drug rehabilitation services. Invest in educational resources to teach communities how to deal with law enforcement.

Edit to add: People are confusing civil liability with criminal liability. If you are found guilty of a crime, then you can be sued.