Live data from Hacker News

Particle mystery: physicists confirm the muon is more magnetic than predicted

sciencemag.org

201–210 of 301 posts

Re: Particle mystery: physicists confirm the muon is more magnetic than predicted

#201
post #199
post #38

There was a nice explanation of the finding in comic format from APS & PhD Comics: https://physics.aps.org/articles/v14/47

why did they move the magnet from Brookhaven to Chicago?

From what I understand the Magnet is extremely specialized and it would cost millions more to manufacture a second one rather than ship the existing one. As to why Fermilab, scientists had exhausted the capabilities of the particle accelerator at Brookhaven and Fermilab already possessed the equipment to generate more intense muon beams.

Re: Particle mystery: physicists confirm the muon is more magnetic than predicted

#204
post #38

There was a nice explanation of the finding in comic format from APS & PhD Comics: https://physics.aps.org/articles/v14/47

What's the symbol that looks like a b fell over?

Lowercase Sigma

Re: Particle mystery: physicists confirm the muon is more magnetic than predicted

#205
post #115

Alexey Petrov, quoted in the article, subbed in to teach one day in my quantum mechanics class :) It was the first day we were being introduced to the theory of scattering, and I will never forget his intro. He asked the class, “what is scattering?”, waited a moment, and then threw a whiteboard marker against the wall, and answered his own question: “that’s scattering”. Lots of times, physics classes can be so heavy…

I have a theory about how well educated the mass of humans are, could be and should be. Bear with me. Roughly 2000 years ago, the number of people who could do arithmetic and writing was Now it is 95% of the world population, and 99.9% of 'Western' world. Lets say that Alexey Petrov is about as highly educated and trained as any human so far. (A Physics PhD represents pretty much 25 years of full-time full-on educati…

You can't really manufacture geniuses, right?

I'm "smart" relative to the general population, but you could have thrown all the education in the world at me and I'd never have become Alexey Petrov.

I have a hunch that the Alexey Petrovs -- the upper 0.001% or whatever -- of the world do tend to get recognized and/or carve out their own space.

I think the ones who'd benefit from your plan would be... well, folks like me. I mean, I did fine I guess, but surely there are millions as smart as me and smarter than me who fell through the cracks in one way or another.

I suspect fairly quickly we'd run into some interesting limits.

For example, how many particle physicists can the world actually support? There are already more aspiring particle physicists than jobs or academic positions. Throwing more candidates at these positions would raise the bar for acceptance, but it's not like we'd actually get... hordes of additional practicing particle physicists than we have now. We'd also have to invest in more LHC-style experimental opportunities, more doctorate programs, and so on.

Obviously, you can replace "particle physicist" with other cutting-edge big-brain vocation. How many top-tier semiconductor engineers can the world support? I mean, there are only so many cutting-edge semiconductor fabs, and the availability of top-tier semiconductor engineers is not the limiting factor preventing us from making more.

There are also cultural issues. A lot of people just don't trust the whole "establishment" for science and learning these days. Anti-intellectualism is a thing. You can't throw education at that problem when education itself is seen as the problem.

Re: Particle mystery: physicists confirm the muon is more magnetic than predicted

#206
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not good to cherry-pick paragraphs from the whole artile. > But as the Brookhaven team accrued 10 times more data, their measurement of the muon’s g-factor stayed the same while the error bars around the measurement shrank. The discrepancy with theory grew back to three sigma by the time of the experiment’s final report in 2006.

No, the essence of my point is that the number of sigmas is meaningless when you have a systematic error — in either the experiment or the theoretical estimate — all that the sigmas tell you is that the two are mismatched. If a mistake could happen once, a similar mistake could easily happen again, so we need to be extremely wary of taking the sigmas at face value. (Eg: the DAMA experiment reports dark matter detecti…

The systematic errors enter the sigma calculation, doesn’t it?

Re: Particle mystery: physicists confirm the muon is more magnetic than predicted

#208
post #120

Can anyone explain in layman's terms why this is important?

The electrons and the muons are very similar. We can measure the magnetic moment and make some calculations and calculate a number g. If they were perfectly ideal particles, then g must be exactly 2, so it's interesting to measure g-2.

The real particles have a lot of virtual particles that appear around them and are impossible to detect directly. It's like a cloud of more electrons, positrons, photons, and other particles.

They are impossible to detect directly, but they affect slightly the result of the experiments, so when you go to a lab and measure g, you don't get exactly 2.

We have a very good model for all the virtual particles that appear around them, i.e. the electrons, positrons, photons, and other particles. It's call the "Standard Model". (But I don't like the name.)

We can use the "Standard Model" to calculate the correction of g of an electron, and the theoretical calculation agree with the experiments up to the current precision level.

We[1] can use the "Standard Model" to calculate the correction of g of a muon, and the theoretical calculation does not agree with the experiments!!!

The disagreement is very small, and there is still a small chance that the disagreement is a fluke, but people is optimistic and think that it they continue measuring they can be confident enough that it is not a fluke.

[1] Actually not me, this is not my research area, but I know a few persons that can.

---

Back to your question:

> *Why is this important?

If the theoretical calculation and the experimental value disagree, it means that the "Standard Model" is wrong. Physicist would be very happy to prove that it is wrong, because they can study variants of this experiment and try to improve the model. (And be famous, and get a Nobel prize.)

Physicist are very worried because they are afraid that the "Standard Model" is so good that to prove it is wrong they need to build a device that is as big as the Solar system. (And they can't be famous, and the Nobel prize will go that work in other areas.)

If this result is "confirmed", the idea is to add a new particle to the "Standard Model" and get the "Standard Model II". (IIRC it already has a few corrections, so we will call the new version the "Standard Model".)

It's difficult because the new particle must change the predictions for this experiment, but not change too much the predictions for other experiments. It may take a few years or decades to find the new theoretical particle that match the experiments.

If you are pessimistic, the new particle will be useful only to explain a small correction that is only relevant in very accurate experiments in the lab, or inside a big star, or other unusual events.

If you are optimistic, in 100 year every moron on Earth will have in the pocket a device that will use this new particle for something amazing.

Or perhaps something in between. Nobody has any clue about this.

Re: Particle mystery: physicists confirm the muon is more magnetic than predicted

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the symbol that looks like a b fell over?

Lowercase Sigma

Just to expand a bit, the sigma symbol is a standard symbol used to indicate the standard deviation of a measurement, and standard deviation is roughly a measure of how much variation there is within a data set (and consequently how confident you can be in your measurement). So when they say that the theoretical result is now 4.2 sigma (units of standard deviation) away from the experimental result instead of 2.7 sigma, that is because the new experiment provided more precise data that scientists could use to lower the perceived variance.

Assuming that there were no experimental errors, you can use the measure of standard deviation to express roughly what % chance a measurement is due to a statistical anomaly vs. a real indication that something is wrong.

To put some numbers to this, a measurement 1 sigma from the prediction would mean that there is roughly a 84% chance that the measurement represented a deviation from the prediction and a 16% chance that it was just a statistical anomaly. Similarly:

> 2 sigma = 97.7%/2.3% chance of deviation/anomaly

> 3 sigma = 99.9%/0.1% chance of deviation/anomaly

> 4.2 sigma = 99.9987%/0.0013% chance of deviation/anomaly

Which is why this is potentially big news since there is a very small chance that the disagreements between measurement and prediction are due to a statistical anomaly, and a higher chance that there are some fundamental physics going on that we don't understand and thus cannot predict.

edit: Again, this assumes both that there were no errors made in the experiment (it inspires confidence that they were able to reproduce this result twice in different settings) and that there were no mistakes made in the predicition itself, which as another commenter mentions eleswhere, is a nontrivial task in and of itself.

Re: Particle mystery: physicists confirm the muon is more magnetic than predicted

#210
post #38

There was a nice explanation of the finding in comic format from APS & PhD Comics: https://physics.aps.org/articles/v14/47

Let me say that this is the best thing that I ever saw in science: people using art to explain extremely complex findings that might change the future in a bit. I laughed a bit on 'I don't know you anymore'. When I was younger, I remember to read cyberpunk comics quite a lot. They explain a vision of the future that is improbable, but in many ways it get stuff right. Imagine aligning this with real word science. Imag…

I used to read the Cartoon Guide to... books as a kid: https://www.amazon.com/Cartoon-Guide-Physics/dp/0062731009. They were great.
Post reply on HN