Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#271

Post by fwip » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #148

marcinzm wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moral principle in this case is that we don't think jail (or worse) should happen without being proven guilty. That does not mean we collectively believe all consequence requires proof of being guilty. Morals and punishment are not binary systems.

There's a point where this kind of ostracism becomes worse than jail. For many Twitch users, streaming is a substantial part of their social environment or even their full-time job. If I had to choose between a couple weeks in jail and a lifetime ban from working in my industry, or a couple weeks in jail and being banned from all my friend group chats, I'd take jail in a heartbeat.

Nitpick: The offenses for which Twitch is considering removing users usually result in much more than a few weeks in jail, if convicted.

Further, Twitch is not the entire industry, the same way that Microsoft is not the industry.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#272

Post by dolni » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

newbie789 wrote: post #250

Coming from the perspective of someone that was an admin of a medium-large forum back in the vBulletin heyday of the early 2000s, I’m somewhat amused by people getting angry at moderation decisions. The rules were pretty clear: This is my website. I pay the bills and maintain it. Here are some clear rules that if you break them, you will be punished with a ban/suspension/shadow an/redirect to goatse upon login/etc. a…

The problem with this for Twitch, specifically, is that Twitch involves money. Many people make streaming a career, and Twitch actively encourages this sort of behavior.

At a normal workplace, while people _can_ simply be fired, they typically aren't. That sort of thing kills morale and may even result in protest resignations.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#273

Post by ed25519FUUU » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #264

newbie789 wrote: post #250

Coming from the perspective of someone that was an admin of a medium-large forum back in the vBulletin heyday of the early 2000s, I’m somewhat amused by people getting angry at moderation decisions. The rules were pretty clear: This is my website. I pay the bills and maintain it. Here are some clear rules that if you break them, you will be punished with a ban/suspension/shadow an/redirect to goatse upon login/etc. a…

>medium-large forum That's the key. You were not operating a massive media platform with a significant marketshare that many people use to make a living with.

Exactly. The difference is a platform that controls 0.001% of the market and a platform which controls 90% of the market.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#274

Post by fennecfoxen » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #142

tw04 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want the government to force private companies to continue doing business with someone they no longer wish to provide services to? We aren't talking protected class here, we're talking private companies picking and choosing who to do business with via non-discriminatory means. That's called a free market. Will they be restored if they're proven innocent? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, that's called a free market.

At a certain point, these platforms have such enormous, unprecedented influence and control over public discourse, that they aught to be thought of differently than, say a restaurant refusing service to a guy without a shirt or shoes on. We're clearly in uncharted territory, when it comes to the control and release of information. Just using Twitter and Facebook for example - they've silenced the second-most voted fo…

n.b. "aught" means "anything at all", as in the opposite of "naught" (nothing at all). you are looking for "ought".

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#275

Post by ctdonath » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

andybak wrote: post #266

newbie789 wrote: post #250

Coming from the perspective of someone that was an admin of a medium-large forum back in the vBulletin heyday of the early 2000s, I’m somewhat amused by people getting angry at moderation decisions. The rules were pretty clear: This is my website. I pay the bills and maintain it. Here are some clear rules that if you break them, you will be punished with a ban/suspension/shadow an/redirect to goatse upon login/etc. a…

I think that works up to a certain scale but it's insufficient if you're Facebook or Twitter. Now - is Twitch more like those or is it more like "Bob's Forum"?

There is no bright line between Facebook and Bob’s Forum.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#276

Post by dagw » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

newbie789 wrote: post #250

Coming from the perspective of someone that was an admin of a medium-large forum back in the vBulletin heyday of the early 2000s, I’m somewhat amused by people getting angry at moderation decisions. The rules were pretty clear: This is my website. I pay the bills and maintain it. Here are some clear rules that if you break them, you will be punished with a ban/suspension/shadow an/redirect to goatse upon login/etc. a…

The significant difference is I (assume) no one depended on your forum for earning a significant part of their income. Once you set yourself as a place where you want people come and earn money, then banning them, and thus depriving them of something of real monetary value, takes on and entire different set of nuances.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#277

Post by lordnacho » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #156

Alupis wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a certain point, these platforms have such enormous, unprecedented influence and control over public discourse, that they aught to be thought of differently than, say a restaurant refusing service to a guy without a shirt or shoes on. We're clearly in uncharted territory, when it comes to the control and release of information. Just using Twitter and Facebook for example - they've silenced the second-most voted fo…

>How can we, as a society, claim to value free speech, yet allow social discourse platforms to censor and silence political enemies? Quite easily. Freedom of speech is freedom from government suppression of that speech - it's quite clear in the constitution. Freedom of speech doesn't mean I or anyone else has to give you a platform to speak from.

I can agree with you, but still think there's a problem. The fact is nobody who wrote the constitution thought we'd get to a point where there was such a dominant private speech player.

So yeah, it made sense at the time, since government was the big player historically, but we're looking at a different situation now.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#278

Post by nsgi » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

newbie789 wrote: post #250

Coming from the perspective of someone that was an admin of a medium-large forum back in the vBulletin heyday of the early 2000s, I’m somewhat amused by people getting angry at moderation decisions. The rules were pretty clear: This is my website. I pay the bills and maintain it. Here are some clear rules that if you break them, you will be punished with a ban/suspension/shadow an/redirect to goatse upon login/etc. a…

> redirect to goatse upon login

That's a rather shitty thing to do. I understand it has a warning now or doesn't exist or whatever, but no one should have to see it without their consent

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#279

Post by SkyBelow » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #111

redm wrote: post #8

"The company said users will be able to report such behaviors but it may also investigate cases proactively, for instance if there is a verified news report that a user has been arrested." So we've arrived at "innocent until accused" instead of "innocent until proven guilty"? And if proven guilty, they will both be punished under the law, and again by companies like Twitch? If proven innocent will they be restored? W…

So you want the government to force private companies to continue doing business with someone they no longer wish to provide services to? We aren't talking protected class here, we're talking private companies picking and choosing who to do business with via non-discriminatory means. That's called a free market. Will they be restored if they're proven innocent? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, that's called a free market.

>We aren't talking protected class here, we're talking private companies picking and choosing who to do business with via non-discriminatory means.

These are discriminatory means, they just aren't ones we have universally decided are wrong to deny services based upon. What happens when we start denying services to those arrested regardless of conviction? Won't this have disparate impact on certain protected classes?

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#280

Post by Dma54rhs » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

newbie789 wrote: post #250

Coming from the perspective of someone that was an admin of a medium-large forum back in the vBulletin heyday of the early 2000s, I’m somewhat amused by people getting angry at moderation decisions. The rules were pretty clear: This is my website. I pay the bills and maintain it. Here are some clear rules that if you break them, you will be punished with a ban/suspension/shadow an/redirect to goatse upon login/etc. a…

But it's railroad tycoon discussing these tracks belong to me and rules are simple to a man who built a driveway. Your vbulletin and big megacorp websites don't compare on any level.