Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities • Hacker News Board

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#161

Post by mchusma » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

CabSauce wrote: post #10

That's great. Assuming the following: - Your commute is sufficiently short - You have facilities to shower and dress at work - You have sufficient time to shower and dress at work - You don't have to bring kids or sizable cargo - Weather is sufficiently good - You're sufficiently healthy

I'll note safety of cycling is a big concern of mine, and by far the biggest reason I do not generally bicycle to commute, and only do it for leisure off roads whenever possible.

Cycling is roughly 2x as dangerous as driving (1) to the person themselves per mile travelled and motorcycling is 35 times as dangerous (2).

Electric bikes are probably somewhere in the middle.

I am hoping once we get humans off the road, cycling can be safe and I would love to cycle places.

(1) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221414051... (2) https://www.askadamskutner.com/motorcycle-accident/how-do-ca...

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#162

Post by estebank » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

cabernal wrote: post #102

ab111111111 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What major investment would be required from the city or developers to set up cycling infrastructure? Painting some cycle lanes onto the roads? Marking a few car parking places as bike parking places? That's all that cycling infrastructure really is, so it's super cheap. A lot cheaper than, say, building charging stations for electric cars.

The trick is to get drivers to follow those markings. Where I live I see cars/trucks regularly park on bike lanes with little repercussion. Add to that a hostility between drivers and cyclists sharing the road; this might just be an issue where I live (Toronto) Cycling lane poles would be ideal, but a lot of drivers push back on this since they see it as precious space being taken away from them.

In places where adequate protection was added, in some cases it was removed because drivers couldn't keep from leaving their lane. I guess drivers getting into accidents on their own is worse than lethal accidents involving cyclists on a bike lane.

https://liveboston617.org/2020/12/16/dangerous-bike-lane-div...

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#163

Post by TulliusCicero » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #114

agumonkey wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, without cars we would need no lanes.

What do you do in winter? Or during rain?

Oulu, Finland is way further north than most cities and handles it fine: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2021/01/22...

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#164

Post by SllX » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

stfp wrote: post #150

jedberg wrote: post #35

Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own. Switching from gas car to cycling is something that would require major investments from my city and developers. Both are noble goals, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Switch to electric now, and also encourage new roads and new developments to be bike friendly, so that switching to a bike is something that will be viable in 20 or 30 y…

But it doesn't require major investments. It's really minor investments compared to other infrastructure projects. The issue is taking away even a tiny fraction of car space basically triggers some kind of political road rage.

The political cost within a democratic society is a reality and a real cost you have to contend with if you want to reshape how public roads are used. So, yes, the cost is high compared to switching cars.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#165

Post by TulliusCicero » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

jtdev wrote: post #108

agumonkey wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, without cars we would need no lanes.

How will good be moved? How will the infirm get around? I admire the cyclist ideal that they are fixing the problems of the world by not driving/owning cars... but it seems like a very superficial, quasi-moralistic solution that's really not likely to have the impact that is desired/needed.

Goods and disabled people and emergency vehicles combined are probably The objective isn't to get rid of all car lanes, just replace some of them.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#166

Post by Fricken » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #152

umvi wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put on a coat/rain jacket

For cold or rain? Sure. For 4-6" of snow, you're going to need a lot more than a jacket to cycle in that.

We use snow plows up here in Canada.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#167

Post by dsomers » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

jtdev wrote: post #108

agumonkey wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, without cars we would need no lanes.

How will good be moved? How will the infirm get around? I admire the cyclist ideal that they are fixing the problems of the world by not driving/owning cars... but it seems like a very superficial, quasi-moralistic solution that's really not likely to have the impact that is desired/needed.

Honestly these are such lame points that I hear again and again. I lived in Toronto, bad bike infrastructure, and now live in Amsterdam with great infrastructure. People here with limited mobility use electric wheelchairs in the bike lanes and therefore have more and cheaper and safer mobility options than in Toronto. A person in an electric mobility scoter can safely go from the city centre to the airport on the edge of the city. They also have the option to take a cab or a car of course, cars are still an option but they are not priorities over bikes here — you’re also totally ignoring that it’s dangerous for some disabled people to even use cars — but mobility scooters can be a safer option. Deliveries come in the morning on trucks, but that’s less necessary with more electric cargo bike being used every day.

Cars suck.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#168

Post by mynegation » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

CabSauce wrote: post #10

That's great. Assuming the following: - Your commute is sufficiently short - You have facilities to shower and dress at work - You have sufficient time to shower and dress at work - You don't have to bring kids or sizable cargo - Weather is sufficiently good - You're sufficiently healthy

+ the route is safe enough or - better yet - there are dedicated bike lanes for most of the route

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#169

Post by TulliusCicero » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

ab111111111 wrote: post #60

jedberg wrote: post #35

Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own. Switching from gas car to cycling is something that would require major investments from my city and developers. Both are noble goals, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Switch to electric now, and also encourage new roads and new developments to be bike friendly, so that switching to a bike is something that will be viable in 20 or 30 y…

What major investment would be required from the city or developers to set up cycling infrastructure? Painting some cycle lanes onto the roads? Marking a few car parking places as bike parking places? That's all that cycling infrastructure really is, so it's super cheap. A lot cheaper than, say, building charging stations for electric cars.

That's crappy infrastructure that's effectively inaccessible to most.

Good biking infrastructure is physically segregated infrastructure, which is less trivial to build (though still way cheaper and easier than infrastructure for cars).

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#170

Post by luckylion » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

stfp wrote: post #150

jedberg wrote: post #35

Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own. Switching from gas car to cycling is something that would require major investments from my city and developers. Both are noble goals, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Switch to electric now, and also encourage new roads and new developments to be bike friendly, so that switching to a bike is something that will be viable in 20 or 30 y…

But it doesn't require major investments. It's really minor investments compared to other infrastructure projects. The issue is taking away even a tiny fraction of car space basically triggers some kind of political road rage.

> The issue is taking away even a tiny fraction of car space basically triggers some kind of political road rage.

How do you take "a tiny fraction" away from a street that has one lane in each direction to build a dedicated bike lane? Make it a one-way street and just kill traffic? It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Don't infer motivations, I don't own a car and ride my bike everywhere.

It's mostly a money issue, at least where I live. That part of the budget is spent on "climate managers" (for a city of 20k) instead of improving bike infrastructure.