Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities • Hacker News Board

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#91

Post by unethical_ban » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

ab111111111 wrote: post #60

jedberg wrote: post #35

Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own. Switching from gas car to cycling is something that would require major investments from my city and developers. Both are noble goals, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Switch to electric now, and also encourage new roads and new developments to be bike friendly, so that switching to a bike is something that will be viable in 20 or 30 y…

What major investment would be required from the city or developers to set up cycling infrastructure? Painting some cycle lanes onto the roads? Marking a few car parking places as bike parking places? That's all that cycling infrastructure really is, so it's super cheap. A lot cheaper than, say, building charging stations for electric cars.

There is so much more to cycling safety than this. Many roads don't have shoulders, or don't have the width for dedicated bike lanes. Drivers are often very hostile to bike riders who take up car lanes, esp. if the bikes go under the speed limit and if the cars have to wait at all.

Blindspots. Intersections. Parallel parking/parking in bike lanes. Safe and clean parking of bikes at destinations.

The entire design and build requirements of roads have to be reconsidered to make cycling/scooters first class citizens in cities. As it stands in the US, most cities are pretty dangerous for cyclists.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#92

Post by flaque » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

the_duke wrote: post #67

CabSauce wrote: post #10

That's great. Assuming the following: - Your commute is sufficiently short - You have facilities to shower and dress at work - You have sufficient time to shower and dress at work - You don't have to bring kids or sizable cargo - Weather is sufficiently good - You're sufficiently healthy

Ebikes mostly solve 1, 2, 3 and 6 on your list. They are quite fast, require very little physical effort, and have a small fraction of the energy consumption of a car. And you can still get the health benefit by investing as much muscle work as you want to.

I’m convinced most people haven’t realized just how good ebikes have gotten.

~$1000 gets you basically a slow, mini-motorcycle.

It’s dramatically cheaper than a car, longer range than a bike, and wonderful in cities.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#93

Post by jonnycomputer » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

Cycling as transport, not bicycling as leisure.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#94

Post by dmm » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

CabSauce wrote: post #10

That's great. Assuming the following: - Your commute is sufficiently short - You have facilities to shower and dress at work - You have sufficient time to shower and dress at work - You don't have to bring kids or sizable cargo - Weather is sufficiently good - You're sufficiently healthy

Commuting by car has and creates lots of problems but all of these are ignored because cars are normal and bikes aren't. That's the biggest problem.

For example, driving a car is necessary to be a full member of society in most places in the US. If you can't drive basic things like going to work, buying food, visiting family, seeing a doctor aren't possible or take 2-3x more time without a car. As a result people are very hesitant to take away people's licenses, even if they really shouldn't be driving.

> - Your commute is sufficiently short

This is the most important one. Most people would be happy biking 2mi/3.25km to work. I like biking a lot so I would bike up to 10mi/16km.

> - You have facilities to shower and dress at work

I commuted by bike for years in hot, humid climate without showering at work. Consider all of the remarkable achievements of humanity. You could figure out something that could work for your situation.

> - You don't have to bring kids or sizable cargo

Places where cycling is normal have various solutions for this.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#95

Post by twiddling » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

doikor wrote: post #58

bluefirebrand wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- You live somewhere warm enough to bike year-round.

A lot of people cycle to work in Finland in the winter. This also applies in the northern parts like Oulu. All you need is a good cycling network that is properly maintained in the winter and people will use it. A okish video about winter biking https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU Basically the temperature does not really matter much. It has more to do with the maintenance. If the cycling paths exist and are in good conditi…

"All you need is a good cycling network that is properly maintained in the winter and people will use it."

If you're going to invest in infrastructure, I would think that investments in public transit will be more palatable to the taxpayers.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#96

Post by Steltek » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

ab111111111 wrote: post #60

jedberg wrote: post #35

Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own. Switching from gas car to cycling is something that would require major investments from my city and developers. Both are noble goals, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Switch to electric now, and also encourage new roads and new developments to be bike friendly, so that switching to a bike is something that will be viable in 20 or 30 y…

What major investment would be required from the city or developers to set up cycling infrastructure? Painting some cycle lanes onto the roads? Marking a few car parking places as bike parking places? That's all that cycling infrastructure really is, so it's super cheap. A lot cheaper than, say, building charging stations for electric cars.

From personal experience in town meetings:

* City roads are narrow and don't have empty space just waiting to be painted green. Bike lanes will cost you parking spots or a car travel lane. This gets huge pushback.

* Dangerous drivers must be removed from roads. You can be hit, killed even, with video evidence and the driver may escape punishment entirely.

* Cities (or specifically NIMBY residents) must stop resisting increased density, mixed use, and useless parking minimums. Not everyone wants to live in a suburban development, miles from useful amenities.

* Bikes and alternative transportation are compliments and need to be developed together. Biking to transit hubs is huge. It's not just green paint wherever it fits.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#97

Post by maccard » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

xhkkffbf wrote: post #46

aBioGuy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two little kids. I also own an electric cargo bike. It has replaced over 2,000 car miles in the past year. I can bike to the grocery store, with two kids, and come back with a week's worth of groceries.

So it replaced 2000 miles. If the average person puts 10k-15k on a car, it sounds like you only used it on a few little trips around the neighborhood. You're making my point for me. I'm not saying bikes don't work. I'm just saying that there are many times that they don't work. And it sounds like you're a bike lover and even then, you couldn't replace 8k-13k a year of car travel. And I'll note that you're using an el…

> if the average person puts 10k-15k on a car, it sounds like you only used it on a few little trips around the neighborhood.

The average mileage in the UK is 7k miles annually. Americans just drive too much.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#98

Post by bko » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

ab111111111 wrote: post #60

jedberg wrote: post #35

Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own. Switching from gas car to cycling is something that would require major investments from my city and developers. Both are noble goals, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Switch to electric now, and also encourage new roads and new developments to be bike friendly, so that switching to a bike is something that will be viable in 20 or 30 y…

What major investment would be required from the city or developers to set up cycling infrastructure? Painting some cycle lanes onto the roads? Marking a few car parking places as bike parking places? That's all that cycling infrastructure really is, so it's super cheap. A lot cheaper than, say, building charging stations for electric cars.

$12 million a mile: Here’s how bike-lane costs shot sky high in Seattle

The larger and more ambitious the project the greater the costs. I imagine a massive upgrade would be even more expensive

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/12-...

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#99

Post by schemescape » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

burlesona wrote: post #29

m463 wrote: post #5

I wonder if telecommuting like many are doing right now trumps everything .

Unfortunately, no. Surprisingly, telecommuters appear to drive more than office workers: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09658...

The abstract for that paper isn’t clearly saying that:

> Approximately 20% of telecommuters stay at home all day during a workday, while only 8% of commuters do. Telecommuters that have at least one trip during their workday accrue more vehicle miles travelled and number of trips than their commuter counterparts.

So if you throw out the 20% who don’t leave their home, the rest accumulate more miles on average?

And they mention telecommuters meeting clients (vs. office workers staying at the office), so I’m not sure the populations are even comparable.

Maybe the paper goes into these details?

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#100

Post by jeanaimarre » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

ab111111111 wrote: post #60

jedberg wrote: post #35

Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own. Switching from gas car to cycling is something that would require major investments from my city and developers. Both are noble goals, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Switch to electric now, and also encourage new roads and new developments to be bike friendly, so that switching to a bike is something that will be viable in 20 or 30 y…

What major investment would be required from the city or developers to set up cycling infrastructure? Painting some cycle lanes onto the roads? Marking a few car parking places as bike parking places? That's all that cycling infrastructure really is, so it's super cheap. A lot cheaper than, say, building charging stations for electric cars.

Things like protected bike lanes and bike only routes are essential if you want mass adoption. They cost more than paint and require political leadership that is currently lacking.