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Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

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Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#71
I’m one of the long term PMC / committers on mesos.

In retrospect I feel this was inevitable to a few key reasons:

* k8s was a second system with all the learnings and experience of building such a system at Google for over a decade. Mesos was birthed by grad students and subsequently evolved into its position at Twitter but the engineers driving the project (myself included) did not have experience building cluster management systems. We learned many things along the way that we would do differently a second time around.

* Mesos was too “batteries not included”: this fragmented the community, made it unapproachable to new users, and led to a lot of redundant effort. Most users just want to run services, jobs and cron jobs, but this was not part of Mesos and you had to choose from the array of ecosystem schedulers (e.g. Aurora, Marathon, Chronos, Singularity, etc) or building something yourself.

* Mesosphere was a VC backed startup and drove the project after Twitter. Being a VC backed startup you need to have a business model that can generate revenue. This led to a lot of tensions and mistrust with users and other vendors. Compare this with Google / k8s, where Google does not need to generate revenue from k8s directly, it can instead invest massive amounts of money and strong engineers on the notion that it will improve Google’s cloud computing business.

Even if k8s hadn’t come along, Mesos was ripe to be disrupted by something that was easier to use out of the box, and that had a benevolent home that could unite vendors and other contributors. Mesos could have perhaps evolved in this direction over time but we'll never know now.

Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#72
post #67
post #42

It's sad, but expected. This is not about Apache, but a failed open-governance for commercial open-source from Mesosphere. It's not the case with Apache Spark nor Apache Beam, HBase, etc. Mesos (and many other Berkeley AMPLab efforts) had briliant ideas behind it and an elegant implemention that allowed for much more than what Kubernetes was desgined to. Kubernetes was supposed to be scheduler for Mesos and Google in…

100% Agreed. Ex-Mesosphere employee (I joined in 2015 and left/was fired a year later) The dominant ethos at Mesosphere was that they already won, and were poised to become the next 'cloud orchestration' above the cloud services. But the managers also had no empathy for developer experience -- the majority opinion was "distributed systems are hard, developers don't deserve to have a good experience", despite the new…

Ex-DC/OS user. This explains a lot.

One thing I'd like to say is that CoreOS was the best component of DC/OS by a long mile. We still use its fork (Flatcar) today.

Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#73

I’m one of the long term PMC / committers on mesos. In retrospect I feel this was inevitable to a few key reasons: * k8s was a second system with all the learnings and experience of building such a system at Google for over a decade. Mesos was birthed by grad students and subsequently evolved into its position at Twitter but the engineers driving the project (myself included) did not have experience building cluster…

Thanks for all the work!

Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#74
post #25

I remember at MesosCon, Apple said they are the largest Mesos user. I wonder if they also moved to K8s as well.

They have apparently hired a ton of great k8 folks who have been tasked with building an internal layer of sorts for themselves so I guess they are moving off it (though not anytime soon).

Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#75
post #7

End of an era... Are there any viable alternatives to Kubernetes and Nomad?

For over 90% of workloads kubernetes is an overkill. Only when company is reaching google scale kubernetes make sense. A good alternative to kubernetes is LXD [1] or just stick with docker compose. Kubernetes except for managed services from cloud providers is more difficult than an average application to manage and a huge cost in itself to run and maintain. [1] https://www.linuxcontainers.org/

> For over 90% of workloads kubernetes is an overkill. Only when company is reaching google scale kubernetes make sense.

I hear people repeating this truism all day, but from practical experience, it doesn't seem to be the case - Kubernetes is paying dividends even in small single-node setups.

Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#76

I’m one of the long term PMC / committers on mesos. In retrospect I feel this was inevitable to a few key reasons: * k8s was a second system with all the learnings and experience of building such a system at Google for over a decade. Mesos was birthed by grad students and subsequently evolved into its position at Twitter but the engineers driving the project (myself included) did not have experience building cluster…

It's refreshing to see an honest and critical evaluation of things. This kind of decision should be celebrated and encouraged with all projects.

Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#77

Most of the comments here about Mesos are exactly my experience with Kubernetes. Replacing the words and I'm just nodding my head: "Kubernetes changed frequently and there were enough unknown TBD components at the edges of the ecosystem to make it somewhat volatile." "Kubernetes was an interesting project but the defaults were incredibly naive about production environments." "Kubernetes unfortunateley never got beyon…

As someone you quoted: Take every problem you have with Kubernetes, multiply by 10x to 100x, and you have DC/OS. It's all perspective :)

Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#78
post #70
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is much more the real story but I doubt most folks will ever hear it. Totally agree. Mesos project always had a trouble with governance and didn't build out the larger community the way other projects did. If they had built that coalition, made the project more accessible to others, who knows, maybe it would have gone differently. Then again, k8s succeeded in part due to the Google reputation (even if undeserved…

I think the problem went deeper than that actually. Mesos required that applications use a distributed system API to interface with the executors. This meant it was very challenging to write a distributed system upon Mesos, even though that was ostensibly the very thing that Mesos was meant to solve. When K8s came along and made everything manifest and YAML-based, we sort of knew that we were screwed because of how m…

Eh, maybe. I see your point.

The thing is, Mesos on it's own isn't k8s. Mesos is a scheduler. k8s is a full stack. So it's always been a bit off to fully compare the two.

If your system fit clearly within what k8s did well, then you were fine and the stack worked.

If you had a more complicated architecture with parts that didn't play well with containers or k8s' scheduling model, life became pretty difficult.

That's one reason I liked Mesos is you could build the stack you needed for _your_ infrastructure.

Granted, I don't think most shops had the kind of problems that warranted Mesos, let alone k8s (that's still true today). But k8s is "good enough" for lots of problems and understandably that's where the community went.

Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#79

I’m one of the long term PMC / committers on mesos. In retrospect I feel this was inevitable to a few key reasons: * k8s was a second system with all the learnings and experience of building such a system at Google for over a decade. Mesos was birthed by grad students and subsequently evolved into its position at Twitter but the engineers driving the project (myself included) did not have experience building cluster…

It's refreshing to see an honest and critical evaluation of things. This kind of decision should be celebrated and encouraged with all projects.

On the announcement that it's getting shelved you get a retro. How is that refreshing? Whats your baseline? Where is D2iQ response to this news?

Re: Apache Mesos to be moved to Attic

#80
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's great that k8s (maybe) solves hard problems that nobody except Google has, but it doesn't solve the easy problems that most people have. But it does though. Your dissent is that you don’t understand what secrets are and think load balancers are “magic”? Come on. Also see this[1] 1. https://www.nginx.com/products/nginx-ingress-controller/

Yes, yes, there's a million zillion Kubernetes ingress things, none of which are really good enough that anyone uses them without a cloud-provider LB in front of it. Also they only deal with HTTP/S traffic. Got other types of traffic you want to run? Too bad, tunnel it over HTTPS. If you want a picture of the future of computing, imagine everything-over-HTTPS-on-k8s-on-AWS stomping on a human face forever.

> Got other types of traffic you want to run? Too bad, tunnel it over HTTPS.

Then you’d expose a service, not an ingress. You can do this in a variety of ways depending on your environment.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you’ve never really used k8s and haven’t really grokked even the documentation.

It’s complicated, some parts more than others, but if you’re still at the “wow guys secrets are not really secret!1!” level I’m not sure how much you can really bring to the table in a discussion about k8s.

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