Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals • Hacker News Board

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#81

Post by Arainach » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:51 AM UTC

dkdk8283 wrote: post #35

This has little to do with RMS but instead the appalling attitude of those who are in favor of cancel culture. Historians have failed you: this behavior and mentality will lead to a dark dead end. We must be tolerant and even accepting of those with whom we disagree with. Opinions are fleeting, but we are all human and that won’t change in our lifetime.

You can tolerate people without putting them in positions of leadership. No one has a right to a seat on the FSF board - it's dependent on behavior in accordance with the organization's principles.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#82

Post by robinsoh » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:52 AM UTC

I don't know any of the people involved. But seeing stuff like:

"Mr. Stallman’s behavior clearly has a basis in his handicap. "

This is a strong claim but seems to be made without any explaination or evidence and it is surprising that I see many here seem to accept that without questioning it.

Would an equivalent defense be made for Robert Long, that man who just murdered those Asian spa girls? I'm curious if there's a possible equivalence of what Bruce Perens is saying to that Georgia sherrif saying "He'd had a bad day". Seems like sympathy for perpetrators is reserved only for certain persons.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#83

Post by logicchains » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:52 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #4

Richard Stallman will be punished until the day he dies. And then they will vandalize his grave. All I can do is to try not to commit crimes [1] myself, lest I be similarly removed from employment, stripped of accolade, and banished forever. [1] I'm LGBT and very open and inclusive with everyone (including democrats and republicans), but I seriously worry that eating meat might one day be frowned upon and punished. e…

>[1] I'm LGBT and very open and inclusive with everyone (including democrats and republicans), but I seriously worry that eating meat might one day be frowned upon and punished.

If that happens you could just come to Asia. That cult of climate guilt is entirely a western things; in China people'd give someone weird looks for being vegetarian for non-religious reasons. And to the people coming to down vote this: there are a over a billion people who don't share your radical environmentalist views and never will, suck it up.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#84

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:52 AM UTC

I'm on board with the free expression of individuals that they'll shun RMS and the FSF. Good. Let them. Copyleft will survive it. Open source will survive it.

But I'm on the other side here. Personally, considering the sort of complaints leveled at the FSF (including the ludicrous nonsense that it's bad that one of the board members spends a lot of time and sweat on Wikipedia; or that RMS's toe-jam eating thing is some evidence of how he hurts people), I've flipped the bozo bit on these complainants. These are not evil things so even though some of those other things that are mentioned seem like evil things, if you mention these not-evil things in the same vein as the evil things, I am not going to believe you on either.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#85

Post by legulere » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:52 AM UTC

tinus_hn wrote: post #44

LVDOVICVS wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A blind pilot isn’t capable of doing the job of piloting.

Is an extremely obnoxious man capable of doing the job of a publicly visible board member?

A man whose definition of freedom includes raping children is not fit for an organization that aspires to define freedom.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#86

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:53 AM UTC

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #46

Punishments should have limits, but the point of removing a toxic member of a team is not to punish the individual. If I hang out with a group of friends, and one of those friends repeatedly makes some of the rest of us uncomfortable, I will stop inviting that person to our gatherings. This is not meant as a rehabilitory or a punitive measure. It's simply a group of people who aren't comfortable with someone else's p…

> Stallman was removed because many found his presence unacceptable to their continued participation.

If someone decided not to participate in Free Software because they couldn't stand Stallman, then they don't have a strong urge to do so anyway. It is likely that they didn't even participate at all, but were seeking some attention and did virtue signalling.

Does anyone really believe Sara Mei would have contributed to GNU 20 years ago?

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#87

Post by aortega » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:53 AM UTC

tinus_hn wrote: post #44

LVDOVICVS wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A blind pilot isn’t capable of doing the job of piloting.

Is an extremely obnoxious man capable of doing the job of a publicly visible board member?

>Is an extremely obnoxious man capable of doing the job of a publicly visible board member?

Clearly he can.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#88

Post by geofft » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:55 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #70

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #46

Punishments should have limits, but the point of removing a toxic member of a team is not to punish the individual. If I hang out with a group of friends, and one of those friends repeatedly makes some of the rest of us uncomfortable, I will stop inviting that person to our gatherings. This is not meant as a rehabilitory or a punitive measure. It's simply a group of people who aren't comfortable with someone else's p…

>Stallman was removed because many found his presence unacceptable to their continued participation. Were any of these people actually contributing in any meaningful sense, or just "participating"?

Yes, many of them were.

Here's the lead developer of the HURD: https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...

Here's someone who spent about two decades of his life at the FSF, including as executive director, and won the FSF's award for contributions to free software on the same day that RMS announced his return: http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html

Here's a whole bunch of GNU project maintainers, publishing a statement on gnu.org: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr...

Here's a couple of high-profile GCC contributors: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235096.html

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#89

Post by eecc » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:55 AM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #68

dkdk8283 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His views are not relevant. Should focus on his ability to contribute and keep personal beliefs out of the picture.

How are his views not important when the entire mission of the FSF is to spread a very particular point of view? When RMS is advocating for zoophilia and necrophilia (he's finally relented on pedophilia, though, after many years of also defending "consensual" pedophilia), it hurts the advocacy for his other causes. You can't effectively simultaneously champion two such disparate causes without one cause seeping into…

Please refrain from libelous statements. I’ve never read anything from Stallman that defends any behavior a reasonable person would identify as Paedophilia, rather objections on the extremal formal definitions the US judiciary has for the status of “child”

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#90

Post by Arainach » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:55 AM UTC

aortega wrote: post #71

Arainach wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... >I recall being told early in my freshman year “If RMS hits on you, just say ‘I’m a vi user’ even if it’s not true.” >Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he’d kill himself if I didn’t go out with him. There are plenty of primary sources, and they're not "corporate lobbyists". RMS is toxic.

>>Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he’d kill himself if I didn’t go out with him. I said exactly that many times to girls when I was a teenager. It was a joke. Taken out of context, those phrases can mean anything good or bad.

There is no context in which this is acceptable. It is emotional abuse regardless of whether you consider it a joke. Based on all other anecdotes of RMS' behavior around women, there is zero basis for believing that this was intended for amusement rather than emotional manipulation.