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Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

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71–80 of 227 posts

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#71
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's ridiculous that people continue to bring that up due to lack of real material. That's an indicator that there are no real material. Or the source of his mistreatment of women being the "And hot girls" sticker on his office, that some intern placed to make a joke. Look the people that denounce him. All corporate lobbyists. This looks to me like a political move to eliminate an uncomfortable stone in the road to…

https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... >I recall being told early in my freshman year “If RMS hits on you, just say ‘I’m a vi user’ even if it’s not true.” >Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he’d kill himself if I didn’t go out with him. There are plenty of primary sources, and they're not "corporate lobbyists". RMS is toxic.

>>Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he’d kill himself if I didn’t go out with him.

I said exactly that many times to girls when I was a teenager. It was a joke. Taken out of context, those phrases can mean anything good or bad.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#72
In its introduction, the article contrasts "being able to decide what business you deal with" with "the non-judicial punishment of individuals". I'm not a fan how it simultaneously grouped it together - it's setting the scene up for others to do motte-and-bailey defense (using the business/voting facet to defend abuse towards individuals). But even more surprisingly, the article seems to be oblivious as to why cancellation has teeth - it involves chaining these two facets together.

A bunch of Internet strangers shunning you or calling you names can be distressing, but is mostly inconsequential. The problem starts when the crowd issues or implies a threat - threat of weaponizing this "key part of having a free market" against organizations associated with the victim. Threat of amplifying a negative message to a larger crowd still, to the point it could impact a company's bottom-line, a foundation's mission. Only then the victim is being cancelled, as the groups around them cut ties to save themselves.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#73

How is a "You can't lead an organisation and be a role model if your views hurt a significant amount of people in the organisation" a non-judicial punishment? If you can't read or write you would also probably not lead a large organization, and it's not punishment. Can you rejoin if you have learned reading and writing? Yes. Stallman is not a janitor but in top management (I have the highest respect for janitors but…

> Totally agree, but I won't make a blind person the watchout guy on a ship. There are limits to inclusion.

Generally speaking, a blind person can't do anything to improve their vision.

A person with a social disability can learn coping strategies to perform better in social situations, in spite of their disability. In the literature on ASD, this process even has a name – "masking". They may never be as good at social stuff as someone without a social disability, they may find social situations draining, etc, but they can improve.

People with ASD [0] often have poor social intuition, but they can learn to think consciously about things which other people can identify intuitively. There's no reason why Stallman couldn't do that as well. Sometimes, given enough time, what first had to be learnt consciously can become more automatic, even intuitive.

Has Stallman been taking actions to try to improve as a result of this public controversy? No idea. But it is at least possible he has. Maybe he's been seeing a therapist. Maybe he's even shared that fact with the FSF board, and maybe they've taken that into account in their decision to reinstate him, but of course it wouldn't be appropriate for the FSF board to share that kind of private medical information publicly.

Of course, we also have to consider the fact that he is 68. Increasing cognitive rigidity is a natural consequence of ageing, and people can find it harder to change ingrained habits at 68 than if they were 20 or 30 or 40 years younger. Even so, I don't think being 68 makes change impossible, just harder.

[0] I'm not saying Stallman has ASD, simply that he may. Quite a few years ago he publicly expressed the opinion that he doesn't have ASD/autism/Asperger's, but I don't believe that was based on a professional evaluation, simply a case of "self-undiagnosis". Also, his comments demonstrate he doesn't have a good understanding of ASD, so I don't think his "self-undiagnosis" should be given a lot of weight. He obviously has signs of broad autism phenotype (BAP), but whether it is just BAP or whether it is ASD is something which only a professional can answer. BAP is not a clinical diagnosis, it is a very common subclinical condition. I don't think the BAP-vs-ASD boundary is important for this discussion – people with BAP have many of the same issues that people with ASD do, just to a milder and less disabling degree.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#74
post #17

RMS is abusive. I'm autistic too. When I've behaved in similar ways, I've been similarly forced to account for my behavior. I resent the fact that ostensible defense of him as a person on the spectrum is so ideological. I distrust most of his defenders' sincerity when they talk about his neurodivergence, and I don't consider them allies.

You clearly are not an expert on autism. The disease is a huge spectrum of different behaviors, from almost normal, to severe retardation. I've seen RMS in real life, he's borderline can't take care of himself, that's not being abusive.

RMS himself has rejected the suggestion that he is on the spectrum, so I’m not sure why you are casually suggesting that he is.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#75

How is a "You can't lead an organisation and be a role model if your views hurt a significant amount of people in the organisation" a non-judicial punishment? If you can't read or write you would also probably not lead a large organization, and it's not punishment. Can you rejoin if you have learned reading and writing? Yes. Stallman is not a janitor but in top management (I have the highest respect for janitors but…

His views are not relevant. Should focus on his ability to contribute and keep personal beliefs out of the picture.

Can't say that makes much sense to me. Stallman's contribution is inextricable from his views. He's not on the FSF board as a programmer hacking on Emacs - surely it is to advocate and advance the cause of free software. His views on software, copyright, etc are obviously pretty relevant. His views on other matters are relevant at least insofar as they affect his ability to advocate effectively.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#76
post #54
post #30

I don't think this argument makes sense. In fact if we follow it to its conclusion, it's an additional reason for RMS to be removed from his job. 1. RMS is not being punished by the FSF. He does not have any right to a particular job, even as the founder of an organization. Many people, including FSF board members, believed he was not competent to serve the organization in a leadership role. One could argue about whe…

> RMS has publicly described himself as autistic Oh, has he? Last I heard he actually rejected that. When did he openly call himself autistic?

He's called himself "borderline autistic" in at least one published profile in the Toronto Star, back in 2000. But you're right, he's also walked that back too. In 2008 he described himself as mostly normal with "a few of the characteristics"

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2551458/asperger-s-oxy...

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#77

These humorless absurdities who have decided to enforce their rather colourless morality on everyone can go rot in hell.

Don't worry, most of those kind of people are so miserable that their life is already a living hell. That's why they're so keen to make the rest of us join them; misery loves company.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#78
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's ridiculous that people continue to bring that up due to lack of real material. That's an indicator that there are no real material. Or the source of his mistreatment of women being the "And hot girls" sticker on his office, that some intern placed to make a joke. Look the people that denounce him. All corporate lobbyists. This looks to me like a political move to eliminate an uncomfortable stone in the road to…

https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... >I recall being told early in my freshman year “If RMS hits on you, just say ‘I’m a vi user’ even if it’s not true.” >Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he’d kill himself if I didn’t go out with him. There are plenty of primary sources, and they're not "corporate lobbyists". RMS is toxic.

This is the article that started the whole "RMS defended epstein" lie. It contained a lot of other lies that the author has refused to fix. Considering all that I would say that it is not trustworthy. Even if it is true there is a good chance that it was taken out of context or was a joke. The first one sounds like one, as for the second, I can't defend it but I think that someone who says that needs support rather than harassment, or could be said in jest, for example "oh woe me, what shall I do, I have no real reason to continue living if I can't be with you!", considering how the article tried as hard as possible to misrepresent what he said it sounds possible.

Regardless, even if the suicide case happened as they said, I am not aware of him repeating it. Someone probably told him that this is wrong and he never did it again, isn't this exactly what we want? For people not to repeat their mistakes and stop what makes other uncomfortable? You are not born innately knowing that this is a bad thing.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#79

How is a "You can't lead an organisation and be a role model if your views hurt a significant amount of people in the organisation" a non-judicial punishment? If you can't read or write you would also probably not lead a large organization, and it's not punishment. Can you rejoin if you have learned reading and writing? Yes. Stallman is not a janitor but in top management (I have the highest respect for janitors but…

His views are not relevant. Should focus on his ability to contribute and keep personal beliefs out of the picture.

Stallman is just as free to contribute as you are I are. And he's been contributing over the last few years to the GNU Project.

The question at hand is whether he's an appropriate person to place in a leadership position of an activism organization. And frankly, there's no "should" there - there's only the blunt question of whether he's helping the organization achieve its activism goals or not. If his personal beliefs or actions are making the targets of the activism not be interested in listening, then he's undermining the work of his fellow activists, whether or not he intends to. If his affiliation with the organization threatens funding, then he's putting the organization at risk, whether or not we think that ought to be a relevant factor for donors. (And it goes the other way too, of course.)

The goal of the free software movement is to convince people that software freedom is important and to produce free software. It is a hard enough task. Changing the goals to be to convince people that, first, they should stop caring about Richard Stallman's views, and then after that, that they should care about software freedom, just makes the task even harder.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#80
post #38

Can we please stop armchair-diagnosing RMS and excusing his behaviour based on this armchair diagnosis? Or even worse, calling it a disability like Bruce Perens does, in some kind of effort to gain sympathy, or perhaps appeal to ADA? First of all, nobody has ever actually diagnosed RMS and he himself has rejected that folk diagnosis when offered to him. If dude wanted psychiatric help, he could get it. Second of all,…

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