Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals • Hacker News Board

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#61

Post by anonymousiam » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

legulere wrote: post #48

anonymousiam wrote: post #24

A well written piece by Perens, but his focus on Stallman's disability leaves the reader to reach the point on their own, which may be difficult for some (perhaps those with similar issues to Stallman). The point is that people (and corporations) should be more tolerant of the views of others. They are not required to agree, but they should not automatically push the "cancel" button. I don't agree with everything tha…

Can we not act like the Second World War and consequently Karl Popper’s “ The Open Society and Its Enemies” didn’t happen? You cannot run a tolerant society without being intolerant to those that want to destroy it. You are right, that there is too much intolerance in today’s society, but I don’t think that it’s the case here. I think Stallman’s public statements about child rape deserve all the shunning he got.

How many people know exactly what was said, vs. reading some media report that "Stallman supported child rape?"

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman...

After one person wrote that "Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it rape in the Virgin Islands," Stallman responded, "I think it is morally absurd to define 'rape' in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17."

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#62

Post by jordigh » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:43 AM UTC

warkdarrior wrote: post #59

jordigh wrote: post #38

Can we please stop armchair-diagnosing RMS and excusing his behaviour based on this armchair diagnosis? Or even worse, calling it a disability like Bruce Perens does, in some kind of effort to gain sympathy, or perhaps appeal to ADA? First of all, nobody has ever actually diagnosed RMS and he himself has rejected that folk diagnosis when offered to him. If dude wanted psychiatric help, he could get it. Second of all,…

You are probably referring to ADA not DACA, unless you think RMS is about to be deported.

Thank you, fixed.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#63

Post by Natsu » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:43 AM UTC

legulere wrote: post #48

anonymousiam wrote: post #24

A well written piece by Perens, but his focus on Stallman's disability leaves the reader to reach the point on their own, which may be difficult for some (perhaps those with similar issues to Stallman). The point is that people (and corporations) should be more tolerant of the views of others. They are not required to agree, but they should not automatically push the "cancel" button. I don't agree with everything tha…

Can we not act like the Second World War and consequently Karl Popper’s “ The Open Society and Its Enemies” didn’t happen? You cannot run a tolerant society without being intolerant to those that want to destroy it. You are right, that there is too much intolerance in today’s society, but I don’t think that it’s the case here. I think Stallman’s public statements about child rape deserve all the shunning he got.

> You cannot run a tolerant society without being intolerant to those that want to destroy it.

Popper predicated that right on the right to self-defense against people who use "fists or pistols" instead of words to argue.

Has RMS been out there punching or shooting people or using some other physical violence? Last I knew he wasn't even accused of intolerance at all but of some absurd defense of his now-dead friend who was accused of going to Epstein's island.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#64

Post by Arainach » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:43 AM UTC

aortega wrote: post #25

claxter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps Larry David should produce a "toe incident" episode. It's ridiculous that people continue to bring that up due to lack of real material. I suspect there's more than one type of autism, in Stallman's case it seems that he has no filter at all and always speaks the truth (i.e. what he really thinks). Give a neurotypical person a truth serum and you might be surprised. And you'll have more material that the 10 p…

>It's ridiculous that people continue to bring that up due to lack of real material. That's an indicator that there are no real material. Or the source of his mistreatment of women being the "And hot girls" sticker on his office, that some intern placed to make a joke. Look the people that denounce him. All corporate lobbyists. This looks to me like a political move to eliminate an uncomfortable stone in the road to…

https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...

>I recall being told early in my freshman year “If RMS hits on you, just say ‘I’m a vi user’ even if it’s not true.”

>Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he’d kill himself if I didn’t go out with him.

There are plenty of primary sources, and they're not "corporate lobbyists". RMS is toxic.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#65

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

tinus_hn wrote: post #44

LVDOVICVS wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A blind pilot isn’t capable of doing the job of piloting.

Is an extremely obnoxious man capable of doing the job of a publicly visible board member?

If history is any indication, then yes, he can. He had created the movement that has transformed the industry forever and motivated dosens of thousands developers to contribute their efforts towards Free Software.

And he did it because of the very qualities he is vilified now: persistence, pedantry, having strong opinions.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#66

Post by anonymousiam » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

legulere wrote: post #53

anonymousiam wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I am not defending what RMS said, but "defending child rape" is oversimplifying and over exaggerating his position. His remark related to the age of consent being different in different places (states/countries).

Please read his email again and think about if what you said is really true. It’s quoted in this article: https://thenextweb.com/dd/2019/09/13/free-software-icon-rich...

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman...

After one person wrote that "Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it rape in the Virgin Islands," Stallman responded, "I think it is morally absurd to define 'rape' in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17."

Minsky (and Minsky's wife) disputed the claims that he had sex with Giuffre. Stallman was not supporting child rape, he was objectively looking at how a local government can criminalize behavior that is not illegal in many other jurisdictions.

To be clear, Stallman was not supporting Epstein, and I am not supporting any of them, but Perens' point about Stallman being shunned because he was insensitive is spot on.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#67

Post by enraged_camel » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

dkdk8283 wrote: post #42

KingOfCoders wrote: post #8

How is a "You can't lead an organisation and be a role model if your views hurt a significant amount of people in the organisation" a non-judicial punishment? If you can't read or write you would also probably not lead a large organization, and it's not punishment. Can you rejoin if you have learned reading and writing? Yes. Stallman is not a janitor but in top management (I have the highest respect for janitors but…

His views are not relevant. Should focus on his ability to contribute and keep personal beliefs out of the picture.

Except he didn’t keep his views to himself. He shared it with a ton of others, in writing.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#68

Post by jordigh » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

dkdk8283 wrote: post #42

KingOfCoders wrote: post #8

How is a "You can't lead an organisation and be a role model if your views hurt a significant amount of people in the organisation" a non-judicial punishment? If you can't read or write you would also probably not lead a large organization, and it's not punishment. Can you rejoin if you have learned reading and writing? Yes. Stallman is not a janitor but in top management (I have the highest respect for janitors but…

His views are not relevant. Should focus on his ability to contribute and keep personal beliefs out of the picture.

How are his views not important when the entire mission of the FSF is to spread a very particular point of view?

When RMS is advocating for zoophilia and necrophilia (he's finally relented on pedophilia, though, after many years of also defending "consensual" pedophilia), it hurts the advocacy for his other causes. You can't effectively simultaneously champion two such disparate causes without one cause seeping into the other.

Edit: Sigh, here it is, let's trot it out again, 2006 is when he was defending pedophilia:

> I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing

https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20...

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#69

Post by warkdarrior » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #27

There is a conflict here: on one hand we want diversity, accept people with their differences, their handicap or education. On the other hand we want them to behave the same way we do, otherwise we reject them. So your company should have people with handicap, but that have no effect on others. And diverse genders, but you should consider them all the same, even if we know we have diverse bodies, needs and behaviors.…

> we want them to behave the same way we do

That is a false statement. We want people to behave respectfully of others, not the same way we do.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#70

Post by logicchains » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #46

Punishments should have limits, but the point of removing a toxic member of a team is not to punish the individual. If I hang out with a group of friends, and one of those friends repeatedly makes some of the rest of us uncomfortable, I will stop inviting that person to our gatherings. This is not meant as a rehabilitory or a punitive measure. It's simply a group of people who aren't comfortable with someone else's p…

>Stallman was removed because many found his presence unacceptable to their continued participation.

Were any of these people actually contributing in any meaningful sense, or just "participating"?