Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#51

Post by adolph » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

pow_pp_-1_v wrote: post #46

Wouldn't it be better for Amazon, in the long term to let workers get the best salary/benefits in the industry and even cooperate in their unionization efforts (if the workers want to)? Would it such a big hit to their bottom line? Or am I just being to too naive? [Edit: Grammar]

Assertion: a primary objective of most organizations is to establish and maintain independent control over resources (such as humans).

If true, then it follows that Amazon would reject unionization as the union would claim some controls over human resources. Amazon's interests might be in alignment with a union part of the time but anytime it does not the presence of a union means that Amazon has lost a degree of freedom for action.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#52

Post by boomboomsubban » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #5

I'm clicking through all the links in this article and can't find a single bit from Amazon's point of view. But my hazy memory says Amazon's story is they were fired because they were sending mass emails through the internal Amazon email system trying to unionize and wouldn't quit and use some other means of communication even after being counseled. You'd expect the NYT's to give both side's at a minimum, or is Amazo…

They link to their original article about the firing, which says

>Amazon told the employees that they had violated its policy against solicitation, which forbids Amazon workers from asking their co-workers to donate to causes or sign petitions.

The article is part of a briefing with a headline about the airline industry, somewhat understanding how you would miss it.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#53

Post by peytn » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

pow_pp_-1_v wrote: post #46

Wouldn't it be better for Amazon, in the long term to let workers get the best salary/benefits in the industry and even cooperate in their unionization efforts (if the workers want to)? Would it such a big hit to their bottom line? Or am I just being to too naive? [Edit: Grammar]

They’re doing well now, so from their point of view why take on the risk? Service disruptions caused by strikes would hurt Amazon’s product offerings. Competitors may draw away their hardest workers, leaving Amazon with an uncompetitive, unfireable labor pool.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#54

Post by joana035 » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

_huayra_ wrote: post #21

joana035 wrote: post #13

That's the reason why I don't buy anything from Amazon and prefer to pay a bit more to a local store instead.

Yes, and without too much effort one can also just shop online at other retailers (in case one lives way out in a rural area). Maybe free 2-day shipping won't happen at other places, but free shipping and equivalent prices are easy to find.

Yes, that is what I do (buying online but from a more local seller). If it takes 2 or 5 days to delivery doesn't makes much of a difference for me at least, I will have to wait anyway.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#55

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #48

boomboomsubban wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their spokesperson did not wish to say what policies they claim were violated. They were presented an opportunity to state their side, and chose not to.

Maybe an intrepid journalist could find out... Perhaps, in doing so, that journalist would discover that Amazon had no real argument for any internal policy being violated at all. Or perhaps they would discover that these employees did, in fact, violate some internal policy, whether or not their firing violated their rights.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#56

Post by boomboomsubban » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #48

boomboomsubban wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their spokesperson did not wish to say what policies they claim were violated. They were presented an opportunity to state their side, and chose not to.

Maybe an intrepid journalist could find out... Perhaps, in doing so, that journalist would discover that Amazon had no real argument for any internal policy being violated at all. Or perhaps they would discover that these employees did, in fact, violate some internal policy, whether or not their firing violated their rights.

The intrepid journalist linked to it, why is reprinting it necessary?

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#57

Post by pow_pp_-1_v » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

jjj123 wrote: post #50

pow_pp_-1_v wrote: post #46

Wouldn't it be better for Amazon, in the long term to let workers get the best salary/benefits in the industry and even cooperate in their unionization efforts (if the workers want to)? Would it such a big hit to their bottom line? Or am I just being to too naive? [Edit: Grammar]

It’s not just about the bottom line, it’s also about power. Without unionization, Amazon has complete control over their workers wages, benefits, and work contracts. Unionization shifts some of that control to the workers themselves. Amazon doesn’t want to lose that power.

If they had provided good benefits and working condition, the workers will not be incentivized to form unions, right? Why are they not doing that?

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#58

Post by brundolf » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

curryst wrote: post #47

mycall wrote: post #42

Are there any apps to streamline the unionization of businesses? It would seem quorum discovery is the hardest part of creating a union -- who is ready to join. Being in a union myself, even with some of the political issues that come with it, I very much appreciate what they do for me.

The incentive structure is bad. However much money you make for organizing unions, I'm positive the company they're attempting to unionize will pay you several times that to give them the list of workers who want to unionize. It's the same problem review sites have; companies that want to game the reviews will pay more than users who want honest reviews. You'll also have issues with companies paying someone to join t…

Could the first problem be prevented at a legal level? The app company itself files some sort of legal document preventing itself from falling prey to that sort of corruption (although, really, the first time they did that the company would go under because nobody would use it ever again)

The second problem is harder... maybe the tech could be designed such that nobody, including the makers of the app, could see the list until/unless a quorum is reached? I can't believe I'm saying this, but could the blockchain be useful here?

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#59

Post by lokar » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #49

tyingq wrote: post #2

"The agency told Ms. Cunningham and Ms. Costa that it would accuse Amazon of unfair labor practices if the company did not settle the case, according to correspondence that Ms. Cunningham shared with The New York Times." That's a pretty nice piece of leverage to have in hand while negotiating a settlement. Edit: They were both UX/Design folks with Amazon, fired on April 10th, 2020. Costa was Amazon's first ever Princ…

Is settlement actually a bad deal for Amazon or similar companies like Google? Sure they have to spend a bit of money on the settlement but they have still succeeded at their actual objective of getting rid of the activist employees. This cycle (labour organisation attempt -> leaders fired -> settlement for leaders -> leaders go off to some media job/retirement/academia) happens again and again. Presumably the compan…

It could make it hard to recruit new Sr people and leaders in their fields. I would never consider working at Amazon.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#60

Post by guerrilla » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

mycall wrote: post #42

Are there any apps to streamline the unionization of businesses? It would seem quorum discovery is the hardest part of creating a union -- who is ready to join. Being in a union myself, even with some of the political issues that come with it, I very much appreciate what they do for me.

coworker.org and another that has been posted on HN that I can't recall the name of.