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Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

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Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#111

Post by victorhooi »

brudgers wrote: post #47
londons_explore wrote: post #3

Sounds like a case of "it's too expensive to deal with this wastewater, so let's just put it in a big pond and hope the dam bursts and we can claim it was all a big accident" Mining industries are especially famous for this - there are ponds of waste that are 70 years old, just waiting for their moment to escape...

There's not much that can be done with it because essentially (not basically) it is acid. Phosphate mining uses sulfuric acid to extract the phosphates. These are large scale operations and produce a lot of water with a pH of 1.5-2. There's no comparable industrial process that can consume it as input. So it sits. The gypsum stacks are the other waste byproduct. But it's less problematic because it doesn't flow, it j…

> because essentially (not basically) it is acid'

Haha, I see what you did there...lol. Touche, good sir.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#112

Post by js2 »

voisin wrote: post #33
antattack wrote: post #31

Results of a leak that happened in 1997: "amid heavy rains, a dam broke atop one of two gypsum stacks at the Mulberry Phosphates plant on State Road 60, unleashing a 56-million gallon spill of the acidic wastewater into the Alafia River. The pollution killed everything in its path for 42 miles, eventually rolling into Hillsborough Bay. The death toll included more than 1 million baitfish and shellfish and 72,900 game…

> When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down. This makes me furious. The employees and directors all go about their lives elsewhere with nary a scratch despite causing such a disaster. This is the problem with capitalism. Privatize profits, socialize losses. The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficie…

> The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficient to ensure this kind of devastation is properly paid for by private parties.

Agreed, but in this case, it apparently was paid for by insurance. The next sentence in the paragraph antattack quoted is: "(Its insurance company wound up footing the bill.)"

It's still horrible from an environmental perspective, but at least Florida taxpayers didn't pay the cleanup bill.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#113

Post by jliptzin »

lisper wrote: post #94
brudgers wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much that can be done with it because essentially (not basically) it is acid. Phosphate mining uses sulfuric acid to extract the phosphates. These are large scale operations and produce a lot of water with a pH of 1.5-2. There's no comparable industrial process that can consume it as input. So it sits. The gypsum stacks are the other waste byproduct. But it's less problematic because it doesn't flow, it j…

> There's not much that can be done with it because essentially (not basically) it is acid Couldn't you neutralize it by (say) dumping in a bunch of baking soda? Or lye? (Hm, what actually happens if you mix sulfuric acid with lye? Do they neutralize each other, or turn into something even nastier than the sum of its parts? That'll teach me to blow off high school chemistry.)

Wouldn’t you get the same reaction as the baking soda and vinegar volcano experiment but on a huge scale?

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#114

Post by mycall »

roenxi wrote: post #56
voisin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down. This makes me furious. The employees and directors all go about their lives elsewhere with nary a scratch despite causing such a disaster. This is the problem with capitalism. Privatize profits, socialize losses. The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficie…

I feel compelled, from the tone of the comment, to point this out: Limited liability isn't some surprise side effect of a corporation's legal structure, it is often right there in the name (Ltd, LLC, Pty Ltd, etc). Yes that structure lets people get away with harmful shenanigans. The system is biased towards optimism. Feature, not bug. The benefits and strengths of this have so far completely outweighed the costs to…

I think it is too early to measure the long term effects, saying the benefits completely outweigh the costs. For the investors, you are absolutely right. For the land and ecology 100 years from now, not so much. Stealing the health of tomorrow for gains today.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#115

Post by [deleted] »

Animats wrote: post #102
jwmerrill wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what actually happens if you mix sulfuric acid with lye This reaction produces sodium sulfate (a salt) plus water and heat [1]. No idea if this is practical, though. Maybe it’s difficult to source sufficient quantities of some base to neutralize the acid. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_sulfate#Chemical_indu...

There are alkaline wastes. Steelwork slag, power plant fly ash, residues from concrete production, and, the big one, what's left of bauxite after making aluminum. It's probably possible to build a plant to combine them and get some neutral-pH solid out. Still have a heavy metal problem, though.

[deleted]

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#116

Post by sanguy »

voisin wrote: post #33
antattack wrote: post #31

Results of a leak that happened in 1997: "amid heavy rains, a dam broke atop one of two gypsum stacks at the Mulberry Phosphates plant on State Road 60, unleashing a 56-million gallon spill of the acidic wastewater into the Alafia River. The pollution killed everything in its path for 42 miles, eventually rolling into Hillsborough Bay. The death toll included more than 1 million baitfish and shellfish and 72,900 game…

> When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down. This makes me furious. The employees and directors all go about their lives elsewhere with nary a scratch despite causing such a disaster. This is the problem with capitalism. Privatize profits, socialize losses. The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficie…

Hunt them down. Make them drink it.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#117

Post by brudgers »

lisper wrote: post #94
brudgers wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much that can be done with it because essentially (not basically) it is acid. Phosphate mining uses sulfuric acid to extract the phosphates. These are large scale operations and produce a lot of water with a pH of 1.5-2. There's no comparable industrial process that can consume it as input. So it sits. The gypsum stacks are the other waste byproduct. But it's less problematic because it doesn't flow, it j…

> There's not much that can be done with it because essentially (not basically) it is acid Couldn't you neutralize it by (say) dumping in a bunch of baking soda? Or lye? (Hm, what actually happens if you mix sulfuric acid with lye? Do they neutralize each other, or turn into something even nastier than the sum of its parts? That'll teach me to blow off high school chemistry.)

There's far to much phosphate sludge for me to tackle. I don't have access to that much lye.

Anyway, far brighter minds than mine have been looking at for at least fifty years...Florida got serious about phosphate ecology and water quality in the 1970's. The gypsum stacks and sludge ponds exist because of water quality regulations not the good will of industry.

https://floridadep.gov/water/mining-mitigation/content/phosp...

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#118

Post by brudgers »

Animats wrote: post #102
jwmerrill wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what actually happens if you mix sulfuric acid with lye This reaction produces sodium sulfate (a salt) plus water and heat [1]. No idea if this is practical, though. Maybe it’s difficult to source sufficient quantities of some base to neutralize the acid. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_sulfate#Chemical_indu...

There are alkaline wastes. Steelwork slag, power plant fly ash, residues from concrete production, and, the big one, what's left of bauxite after making aluminum. It's probably possible to build a plant to combine them and get some neutral-pH solid out. Still have a heavy metal problem, though.

Florida does not have steel production because it is distant from both coal and iron ore. Same for Aluminum.

It does have portland cement production due to the abundance of limestone near the surface. However, portland cement production is more or less local globally...or it's usually made relatively close to where used. Conversely Florida's phosphate industry is a major source globally. The scales are incomensurate.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#119

Post by nitrogen »

Scoundreller wrote: post #103
nitrogen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alfalfa is baled by machines, no?

It’s asparagus I was thinking about. Was an issue in Germany: https://m.dw.com/en/seasonal-workers-flock-to-germany-for-as... As with many labour-intensive crops, people want to eat it, but not do the work involved themselves.

As with many labour-intensive crops, people want to eat it, but not do the work involved themselves.

Ah, yes. The best asparagus is hand-picked the day of consumption, and it would be ideal if picked by the people eating it. I grew up in an area that used to have asparagus fields, so asparagus grew "wild" along the fences and ditchbanks. I would occasionally help my parents cut the day's wild asparagus for dinner. I hated it as a kid, but really grew to appreciate how good fresh asparagus is when compared to what has to be mass produced and shipped, because, as you say, nobody wants to do the labor.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#120

Post by zokier »

Scoundreller wrote: post #103
nitrogen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alfalfa is baled by machines, no?

It’s asparagus I was thinking about. Was an issue in Germany: https://m.dw.com/en/seasonal-workers-flock-to-germany-for-as... As with many labour-intensive crops, people want to eat it, but not do the work involved themselves.

I wonder how much improved robotics will change the picture. Labor intensive practices and crops might become more feasible if we can get robots to do that labor. Afaik agriculture is already moving in that direction with very fancy advanced tractors etc (I don't actually know anything about ag).

One issue that I foresee is that if something needs a very specialized robot, then the market might not be big enough to warrant the development cost. Undoubtedly it makes lot of sense to automate something like wheat or whatnot bulk crop because there is just tons of that around. But asparagus or something might be too niche?

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