Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater” • Hacker News Board

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#31

Post by antattack » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

Results of a leak that happened in 1997:

"amid heavy rains, a dam broke atop one of two gypsum stacks at the Mulberry Phosphates plant on State Road 60, unleashing a 56-million gallon spill of the acidic wastewater into the Alafia River. The pollution killed everything in its path for 42 miles, eventually rolling into Hillsborough Bay. The death toll included more than 1 million baitfish and shellfish and 72,900 gamefish near the river’s mouth, 377 acres of damaged trees and other vegetation along the riverbank, and an unknown number of alligators. When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down."

https://www.sarasotamagazine.com/news-and-profiles/2017/04/f...

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#32

Post by Nodraak » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

TL;DR: eating 1 kg of phosphogypsum each day yields 36 mSv/year. Conclusion: very very far from life-threatening ; nobody is going to die or get cancer because of this.

Oh God. This is Fukushima radioactive waters all again. I'm pissed: global warming is serious, and nuclear is our best bet. We dont need this fear-mongering non sense.

Anyway, let's get to the facts and see how radioactive and dangerous this thing actually is. Methodologie from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose, section "Source of radioactivity".

Here is the data:

    1. Central Florida phosphogypsum averages 26 pCi/g radium
    2. Radium: 10**-7 Sv/Bq

This gives: 26 pCi/g radium * 3.7 * 10**10 Bq/Ci * 10**-7 Sv/Bq (radium) = 0.100 mSv per Kg of phosphogypsum So, if someone eats 1 kg of phosphogypsum per day, that would be 0.100 * 365 = 36 mSv/year.

Background dose is 5-10 mSv/year, a plane pilot or X-Ray machine operator gets around 25-50 mSv/year, an astronaut something like 500 mSv/year.

So, eating 365 kg per year will yield a higher than background dose, but nothing dangerous. I mean, it's probably dangerous to eat so much of this chemical stuff, but not because of radioactivity.

Sources:

    1. https://web.archive.org/web/20150219224641/http://www1.fipr.state.fl.us/PhosphatePrimer/0/684AE64864D115FE85256F88007AC781
    2. https://web.archive.org/web/20121026093251/https://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/docs/federal/520-1-88-020.pdf - Page 156 and following ; p175 for Radium
    3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphogypsum

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#33

Post by voisin » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:07 PM UTC

antattack wrote: post #31

Results of a leak that happened in 1997: "amid heavy rains, a dam broke atop one of two gypsum stacks at the Mulberry Phosphates plant on State Road 60, unleashing a 56-million gallon spill of the acidic wastewater into the Alafia River. The pollution killed everything in its path for 42 miles, eventually rolling into Hillsborough Bay. The death toll included more than 1 million baitfish and shellfish and 72,900 game…

> When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down.

This makes me furious. The employees and directors all go about their lives elsewhere with nary a scratch despite causing such a disaster. This is the problem with capitalism. Privatize profits, socialize losses. The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficient to ensure this kind of devastation is properly paid for by private parties.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#34

Post by mc32 » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

voisin wrote: post #33

antattack wrote: post #31

Results of a leak that happened in 1997: "amid heavy rains, a dam broke atop one of two gypsum stacks at the Mulberry Phosphates plant on State Road 60, unleashing a 56-million gallon spill of the acidic wastewater into the Alafia River. The pollution killed everything in its path for 42 miles, eventually rolling into Hillsborough Bay. The death toll included more than 1 million baitfish and shellfish and 72,900 game…

> When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down. This makes me furious. The employees and directors all go about their lives elsewhere with nary a scratch despite causing such a disaster. This is the problem with capitalism. Privatize profits, socialize losses. The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficie…

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Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#35

Post by BobbyJo » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #34

voisin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down. This makes me furious. The employees and directors all go about their lives elsewhere with nary a scratch despite causing such a disaster. This is the problem with capitalism. Privatize profits, socialize losses. The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficie…

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Yeah, I think people conflate 'capitalism' and 'insufficient regulation'. Capitalism is a framework that requires regulation, even more so than communism or socialism, since the regulations are what defines how the markets work.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#36

Post by brudgers » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #28

brudgers wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phosphate industry waste water has a pH of 1.5-2. The ponds are sterile and a lovely azure despite what Google Maps shows. Nothing grows on their banks naturally, though with substantial remediation over a couple of decades, it's possible to surround the pond with a ring of pines and grass...this is the Florida phosphate industry's "land and lakes" program. From time to time Florida developers have built housing deve…

After 57 years, I'm all too familiar with phosphate mining, but these ponds are not sterile. A lot of stuff is growing there.

This, https://www.google.com/maps/place/Manatee+County,+FL/@27.640...

Traditionally, Floridians call them "sludge ponds" as here, https://www.gainesville.com/news/20160929/mosaic-says-tests-...

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#37

Post by ta988 » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #21

> "For every ton of phosphoric acid produced, the fertilizer industry creates 5 tons of radioactive phosphogypsum waste..." Is that correct? That sounds unsustainable, as well as unprofitable. Also, is it safe to presume that if the cost of proper disposal was reflected in the price of food, food would be significantly more expensive? Finally, are there particular foods this is used for?

Almost every crop. The problem is also that those phosphorous fertilizer are horribly inefficient , plants dont absorb much and most of it gets leached. So out of this 1 ton not a lot gets absorbed by the plants.

To this, we need to add the fact that phosphorous reserves are limited, some estimate that we will reach the peak P in 2030.

Maybe then we will be forced to think about more sustainable approaches?

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#38

Post by linuxftw » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

Just imagine the similar situations and much worse elsewhere in the world. Mining rare elements and poisoning native lands. Industrial titans have done an amazing job at shifting environmental focus from pollution to an invisible, harmless gas.

Genetically engineering crops so we can spray them with pesticides, I wonder where the wastewater from manufacturing those pesticides goes. Probably into the Mississippi river.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#39

Post by IgorPartola » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

leetrout wrote: post #7

horstmeyer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some more information about where those old ponds are located? Thanks!

Coal operations have slurry ponds where they store the sludge from washing the coal. And coal power plants have fly ash ponds which are bad for the environment. We’re shutting down the coal plants but these ponds will be around forever. Here is a map of ash ponds from power plants https://earthjustice.org/features/map-coal-ash-contaminated-... Here’s a link to the slurry spill I lived through with no water for days h…

I am curious what you could do with all this. I was under the impression that ash could be composted pretty well. It is organic material after all. Or is the issue the other added chemicals?

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#40

Post by boomboomsubban » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #34

voisin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down. This makes me furious. The employees and directors all go about their lives elsewhere with nary a scratch despite causing such a disaster. This is the problem with capitalism. Privatize profits, socialize losses. The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficie…

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They didn't say that capitalism caused the problems, they said that capitalism allowed the shirking of responsibility.