Live data from Hacker News

I can only think that modern front end development has failed

twitter.com

301–310 of 521 posts

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#301
post #63
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one said its the reason, its just sign of how bad stuff is.

No it's not, validators are extremely outdated. It's not "bad" to forget to close the body tag, it actually doesn't matter at all.

"Validators are extremely outdated therefore not following HTML specification doesn't matter" :facepalm:

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#302
This infantile false dichotomy again. We get it; BE engineering is far superior to JS/FE engineering so therefore anyone belonging to the BE/non-JS tribe is a far superior intellect and person. We’re glad you feel better about yourself.

I challenge you to be the change you want to see: 1) build something better 2) get wide adoption of it.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not at all. It is more like saying that I make better food than almost all restaurants in town. Which of course is not true, and that’s the point. Because I do make better websites than almost any I come across in the wild. Your question about handling traffic is orthogonal to the topic of design. The answer is that any of my sites would do better, given the same server architecture, because I deliberately limit…

I think their analogy may still hold. My mom claims her cooking is better than the restaurants (arguable) but she's not operating under the constraints of cooking at the variety, consistency and speed that my local diner does. The diner needs to be able to provide hundreds of dishes on short order including on days when the main chef is out. So maybe my mom's once-in-a-while pot of chilly is great but she couldn't ru…

Why do you think your mom's chili wouldn't scale? Do you have any material reason to think that?

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#304
post #164
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You start a new project with a framework, and it seems like there is this whole area of your project that is essentially a black box, ready to break (or misbehave) any time. Any framework you're not familiar with will feel like this. This isn't something unique to frontend frameworks.

> Any framework you're not familiar with will feel like this. This isn't something unique to frontend frameworks. But the frameworks get out of fashion faster than you can obtain deep knowledge of them.

This is starting to no longer be true. We've held Angular/React in the top spots for a while now. Vue is probably next in line.

However, both front-end and back-end are substantial enough now and have enough frameworks and environments that it's really hard to do well at both. I'd much prefer more specialization, which would hopefully lead to higher quality.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#305

What upsets and concerns me the most is when I see poorly developed SPA on really important sites. For example, government service application websites. If reddit or nytimes has a bloated, intermittently failing SPA site, that's an annoyance. When it's a form to apply for unemployment, ACA health care, DMV, or other critical services, it's a critical failure. Especially since these services are most often used by exa…

Yeah what's weird is that there's is an entire generation of developers who think of SPA as the default.

They think that server side is slower because you have to send down more data, or you have to wait for the server to generate HTML.

Quite the contrary, it's slower to send down 1 MB or 10 MB of JavaScript to render a page, than to simply send down a 100 KB HTML page. Even if you need some JS also, browsers know how to render concurrently with downloads, as long as you provide enough HTML.

Rendering HTML on a server side Intel/AMD/whatever CPU is way faster than rendering it on a mobile device (and probably more efficient too).

Even if it weren't faster and more efficient, it would save battery power on the client.

And there is a ton of latency on the client side these days, ignoring network issues. There are ways of using the DOM that are expensive, and a lot of apps and frameworks seem to tickle those pathological cases. These 20-year-old browser codebases don't seem to be great workloads for even modern Android or iPhone devices.

---

edit: To be fair, I think what's driving this is that many sites have mobile apps and web apps now, and mobile apps are prioritized because they have more permissions on the device. (This is obvious when you look at what happened to Reddit, etc.)

It's indeed a more consistent architecture to do state management all on the client. Doing a mix of state on the server and state on the client is a recipe for confusion -- now you have to synchronize it.

Still there are plenty of apps that are website-only, like the government sites people are talking about. Those people appear to be copying the slow architecture of the dual mobile+web clients and getting a result that's worse.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, you can see that the webcomponent I linked is microfrontend. Interestingly, I first ported the code to StencilJS, but then it seemed the framework actually got in my way and I removed it, I prefer the code as is now and there's not even a build because it's vannillajs. You just add the script tag in your page and start using the tags with your options. I used the mdn custom element documentation without any…

I like what I'm seeing in Web Component technology, but it's not fully there for me yet. Suppose your base Design System is web components. Most Microfrontend (MFE) teams will still pick up an off-the-shelf React, Vue, Angular, etc. But VDOM and web components don't always play nicely. If you have Parent-Child web components, specifically 1 parent with N-immediate children, React can't resolve this gracefully. Every…

I don't think it matters so much for React/Angular/Vue to support web components because they will be dropped in favor of vanilla js just like jQuery has, thanks to Custom Element which is recommended for MFE, and ESM which will likely be. Mixing different frameworks is a promise that I don't care about, but you got some pretty interesting feedback about it, seems like it might as well take a few years of effort.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good, and commercially successful, don't always go together. Amazon is commercially successful but few would argue their UX is good.

Amazon's user experience is fantastic. Why else do you think they are so commercially successful?

The big one that always gets me is sort by price doesn't actually sort by price. Or at least, not the price I care about (which is price for condition new, seller Amazon).

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is something very strange in the WWW, when a self-taught amateur like me can make a site that is better than the New York Times Would love to see something that does everything the NYTimes does that is clearly and obviously "better."

Easy: take the front page and remove every headline and introductory paragraph that, for some reason that boggles my mind, is repeated, sometimes more than once, sometimes more than twice, on various areas of the enormous page. Now you have a page with the same information that is lighter and easier to find things on. And less stupid. Another example: sometimes there is a stock ticker near the top of the front page,…

I think the core mismatch here is that you are optimizing for experience and NYT, as a business, is optimizing for revenue. Those two things often do not overlap.

I can virtually guarantee you that NYT has spent thousands upon thousands of hours optimizing and multi-variant testing their headline display to maximize conversion. In other words, if they followed your advice, they would be leaving money on the table.

As for your stock ticker display bug, keep in mind that NYT likely employs hundreds of developers and dozens of teams each owning various pieces of the website. Bugs will make it to production, so it's a matter of prioritization. I'd be shocked if they weren't already aware of that bug. It's probably lower on some specific team's backlog than a bunch of stuff that will be more valuable for the company in terms of revenue.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#309

What upsets and concerns me the most is when I see poorly developed SPA on really important sites. For example, government service application websites. If reddit or nytimes has a bloated, intermittently failing SPA site, that's an annoyance. When it's a form to apply for unemployment, ACA health care, DMV, or other critical services, it's a critical failure. Especially since these services are most often used by exa…

This is the exact opposite of my experience.

When I click on a link, or click to submit something, and I realize that it's NOT an SPA, my immediate thought is "this is going to be a nightmare."

When I click a button, and it has to make a request to load the next set of html, fully replace the page contents, and probably submitted a post request that will have issues restoring the state of my form if I go back, etc, I feel like I'm on a DMV site from the 90s. Navigating something that is meant to operate as a cohesive application by instead using a series of markup displays is only ever going to be hacky at best. I love using SPAs, because they're actually applications, rather than snapshotted frames of an application running on a remote server.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#310
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A React component has no obligation to add a div or any other element to the DOM tree.

Dan Ambramov has stated the reason hooks was created was to avoid nesting hell that was used to manage state. I may be misunderstanding him. I am not s React expert.

I believe "nesting hell" was in reference to obtuse state management architecture rather than DOM structure. It seems like a common misconception based off other comments on this post. Angular inserts a new custom element for every component so it's definitely a problem elsewhere, if not with React.
Post reply on HN