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Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

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Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#71
post #61
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel compelled, from the tone of the comment, to point this out: Limited liability isn't some surprise side effect of a corporation's legal structure, it is often right there in the name (Ltd, LLC, Pty Ltd, etc). Yes that structure lets people get away with harmful shenanigans. The system is biased towards optimism. Feature, not bug. The benefits and strengths of this have so far completely outweighed the costs to…

Limited Liability refers to the suppliers of capital, which often differ from the employees and directors that are responsible for the issues like in the article. I am fine with this since there is no moral hazard, but the parties involved / responsible should not be able to take their bonuses, click bankrupt and restart elsewhere under a new name. Society needs more protection, clearly.

This is an accurate description of limited liability. It does not blanketly shield corporations from liability, only shareholders (and there are exceptions to this as well).

In fact, in Florida--as well as many other jurisdictions in the US--there is a special category of torts that cover liability for ultrahazarous activities and apply strict liability. There are cases that have specifically dealt with the impoundment of large quantities of water.

Bunyak v. Clyde J. Yancey & Sons Dairy, Inc., 438 So.2d 891 (Fla. App. 2 Dist. 1983). Cities Service Co. v. State, 312 So.2d 799 (Fla. App. 2 Dist. 1975).[1]

Note the facts the latter case, Cities, dealt with:

>The appellant, Cities Service Company (Cities Service), operates a phosphate rock mine in Polk County. On December 3, 1971, a dam break occurred in one of Cities Service's settling ponds. As a result, approximately one billion gallons of phosphate slimes contained therein escaped into Whidden Creek and thence into the Peace River, thereby killing countless numbers of fish and inflicting other damage.

>Appellee, The State of Florida (State), filed suit against Cities Service seeking injunctive relief as well as compensatory and punitive damages arising out of the dam break.

It is absolutely true that the way that corporations have escaped liability for these activities is to "socialize losses" as an OP has aptly stated. In this situation, the prior owner went bankrupt and handed this major liablity to the state to maintain for years and when it breaks, the state (possibly federal) taxpayers and the environment will bear the loss.

[1] https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/1849457/cities-service...

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#72
post #61
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel compelled, from the tone of the comment, to point this out: Limited liability isn't some surprise side effect of a corporation's legal structure, it is often right there in the name (Ltd, LLC, Pty Ltd, etc). Yes that structure lets people get away with harmful shenanigans. The system is biased towards optimism. Feature, not bug. The benefits and strengths of this have so far completely outweighed the costs to…

Limited Liability refers to the suppliers of capital, which often differ from the employees and directors that are responsible for the issues like in the article. I am fine with this since there is no moral hazard, but the parties involved / responsible should not be able to take their bonuses, click bankrupt and restart elsewhere under a new name. Society needs more protection, clearly.

The insurance company paid out the fines; they went bankrupt because they couldn't possibly continue to operate without massive hikes to their insurance (if they even could get more).

If they move on and start something again that is potentially dangerous, it is on the new insurance company to do some diligence in rating the risk of bad behavior.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#74

Results of a leak that happened in 1997: "amid heavy rains, a dam broke atop one of two gypsum stacks at the Mulberry Phosphates plant on State Road 60, unleashing a 56-million gallon spill of the acidic wastewater into the Alafia River. The pollution killed everything in its path for 42 miles, eventually rolling into Hillsborough Bay. The death toll included more than 1 million baitfish and shellfish and 72,900 game…

Don’t forget what happened in the early 2000s, hauling it and dumping in the Gulf of Mexico:

https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2003/07/17/barge-sets-out-t...

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#75
post #15

Industrial Agricultural is a biohazard. We need to embrace the methods we used to feed ourselves for millions of years, with nature instead of in opposition of nature. Reference: https://archive.org/details/permaculture1adesignersmanualbyb...

A first good step would be to add the external cost of fertilizers to the price. We are all paying for the destruction of oceans, the result of using fossil fuels in the production chain, and the by-product which get stored in large pools like this, and yet they can easily out compete more ecological minded production since the cost get applied to society at large rather than the industrial farm that bought the fertilizer.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like mostly schadenfreude. What does it matter to you if they pay or we all do, assuming that we have more than enough as a society to pay for it, i.e. the benefits of capitalism outweigh the losses. The only impact is potential moral hazard, but that could be prevented with loss of licenses, etc.

> What does it matter to you if they pay or we all do Because when you know you'll be held personally responsible, you'll act accordingly. If you feel like you can act any way you want without repercussion, then you'll automatically take more risks. Usually this is the way we justify the salaries of CEOs as well, "they are the ultimate responsible for everything in the company, so high salary is needed for that big r…

> The only impact is potential moral hazard, but that could be prevented with loss of licenses, etc.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#77
post #56
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down. This makes me furious. The employees and directors all go about their lives elsewhere with nary a scratch despite causing such a disaster. This is the problem with capitalism. Privatize profits, socialize losses. The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficie…

I feel compelled, from the tone of the comment, to point this out: Limited liability isn't some surprise side effect of a corporation's legal structure, it is often right there in the name (Ltd, LLC, Pty Ltd, etc). Yes that structure lets people get away with harmful shenanigans. The system is biased towards optimism. Feature, not bug. The benefits and strengths of this have so far completely outweighed the costs to…

Limited liability doesn't shield you from criminal negligence, which is what such things should be classified as.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only this but ancient agriculture supported fewer humans with a lot more work. This romanticized idea of growing food the old fashioned way and forget today’s busy way of life omits the part of doing nothing but growing food from not figuratively dawn to dusk. I spent some time in my youth farming the old fashioned way: hand tools only, carrying water from somewhere else, removing pests and weeds by hand. It is a…

I’d argue that the average western person’s food budget comes from: 1) desire to eat « fresh » foods out-of-season (greenhouses, air transport, lengthy controlled-atmosphere storage) 2) feeding food to food and getting 1/10th back (feeding corn to a cow) 3) desire for labour-intensive foods. Potatoes can be straightforward harvested from a field by a machine. Alfalfa (or anything in a greenhouse) cannot. I think the…

Why stop there? Nutritional algae genetically engineered to balance macro and micro nutrients with any artificial flavor and texture surely is cheaper. Grow it in a jar at home.

Re: Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “radioactive wastewater”

#80
post #56
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When state officials hit the company with a multimillion-dollar fine for the damage done, it declared bankruptcy and shut down. This makes me furious. The employees and directors all go about their lives elsewhere with nary a scratch despite causing such a disaster. This is the problem with capitalism. Privatize profits, socialize losses. The only solution is to force companies to put up bonds or insurance sufficie…

I feel compelled, from the tone of the comment, to point this out: Limited liability isn't some surprise side effect of a corporation's legal structure, it is often right there in the name (Ltd, LLC, Pty Ltd, etc). Yes that structure lets people get away with harmful shenanigans. The system is biased towards optimism. Feature, not bug. The benefits and strengths of this have so far completely outweighed the costs to…

What the fuk are you even talking about.
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