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Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

bbc.com

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Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#141

Post by criley2 »

em-bee wrote: post #126
criley2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men in China have less rights than women in America. At some point, it becomes shortsighted to lose sight of where we are.

and on the other side there are more women in generally male dominated fields of work in china than in america. win some, loose some. not really helpful to compare that.

It certainly feels like false equivalence to suggest "you win some and lose some" when comparing free speech and political rights to gender representation in some fields.

But I'll take your word for it, perhaps there are american women who would trade their right to vote and speak freely in exchange for more of their gender at work with them

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#142

Post by redis_mlc »

renewiltord wrote: post #116
oytis wrote: post #4

That's pretty bad, but who was the real captain? It's the first time I see total silence about the crew in official sources. At least it is mentioned in some reputable sources (e.g. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/04/01/suez-can... ) that the crew was Indian, but still not a single name.

Perhaps they're practicing blameless post mortems.

That's a software thing. In the real world, "post mortems" exist to assign blame.

(The only exception I can think of is that in US aviation, workers can file a NASA form immediately after an unintentional mistake to avoid enforcement actions.)

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#143

Post by realityking »

delecti wrote: post #112
implements wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s possible she has a Masters Ticket (ie is qualified to Captain a vessel) while working as First / Chief Mate - it’s quite common as it would allow her to take command in an emergency if the Captain was incapacitated.

It's possible to be a First Mate without that credential? I'll readily admit to being extremely ignorant about shipping, but I always imagined the position being akin to the US Vice President, in that part of the job description is to take over from the captain as necessary.

There is a specific Chief Mate license (according to STCW) but indeed commonly the Chief Mate holds a Master license, it’s just not required for minimum safe manning. (If it was, than the Manning regulations wouldn’t be met anymore when the captain is incapacitated)

At least here in Germany it only take ~3 years of sea service to progress from officer of the watch to master - but no one will entrust you with a major cargo or passenger vessel with that little experience.

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#144

Post by ithkuil »

em-bee wrote: post #118
allendoerfer wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might be, but that‘s not the reason why there are less male teachers. It is not harder to become a teacher, when you are male. They are just less interested in becoming one (on average). As are women to drive container ships. Although I don’t think that there is just one woman, who wants to do it.

it is the reason in new zealand. there it is practically impossible for men to become teachers at least in kindergarten and primary school because parents don't trust them. sad really because kids need rolemodels from both genders

The "solution" to this problem is to not allow people to choose. In the country where I live the vast majority of schools are funded from the very high taxes you pay. You'd still have to pay those taxes if you choose to enroll your kid in a private school just so you could avoid a male teacher.

Male teachers are nevertheless underrepresented, due to other biases.

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#145

Post by [deleted] »

criley2 wrote: post #136
patcon wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jumping to a completely different edge in the graph of human relationships seems like a poor way to get through anything, be it a conversation or an actual social challenge. Networks are local. Speaking and making negating cases based on far-away, low-connectivity areas makes little sense and serves no one except those favouring inaction or an abundance of caution (for whatever reasons). Anyhow, I'm saying the above…

What in the world? This is the most out of place reply I've ever received. I can't begin to understand what you think you read and the volumes of strange assumption you made about me I honestly don't know if this reply represents sanity at all. Literally nothing in the reply even appears to relate to a single word I said. The entire reply appears to be based on a completely different post?

[deleted]

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#146

Post by [deleted] »

criley2 wrote: post #136
patcon wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jumping to a completely different edge in the graph of human relationships seems like a poor way to get through anything, be it a conversation or an actual social challenge. Networks are local. Speaking and making negating cases based on far-away, low-connectivity areas makes little sense and serves no one except those favouring inaction or an abundance of caution (for whatever reasons). Anyhow, I'm saying the above…

What in the world? This is the most out of place reply I've ever received. I can't begin to understand what you think you read and the volumes of strange assumption you made about me I honestly don't know if this reply represents sanity at all. Literally nothing in the reply even appears to relate to a single word I said. The entire reply appears to be based on a completely different post?

[deleted]

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#147

Post by Retric »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #137
Retric wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physics. You can see a lot more cars than you can identify the gender of the cars driver. For example on a freeway at night, how many cars in front of you can you see vs how many drivers genders can you identify and remember. Now sure, the smaller percentage may still add up to a significant number. But people do a crap job of limiting their mental tallies to only the people they actually verify. If they assume someo…

It’s a smaller sample than all cars I ever see, sure. But it’s still fairly big. If I look at a car I’ll usually try to look at the drivers face too, just because it’s useful information to know where they are directing their attention. I don’t think that’s particularly idiosyncratic and so it seems like a somewhat cheap argument to me to imply that people are basically just willfully deluding themselves.

The issue is cognitive biases make the total sample size irrelevant, which is something to be aware of. Unfortunately, said biases are not willful which makes them far more insidious a problem to notice and deal with.

Anyway, as a simple test try and count how many cars you can see next time you go for a drive, how many people’s gender you can infer, and how many you can positively identify based on their looks. It’s significantly safer to try this as a passenger.

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#148

Post by hnbad »

djrogers wrote: post #106
hnbad wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The news story is literally that she's the _first_ female captain, so it's safe to say that there are probably a lot of deeply entrenched prejudices against women in those roles. Jokes are (almost?) always political because it only works if you share similar views about what the world is like and how it should be. In this case the joke is that women are unfit to be captain, the setup is that "they" eventually "let" a…

> If you don't think women are unfit to be captain (or at least "intrinsically less fit" or whatever) the punchline doesn't work. You seem to have a rather linear view of humor. People laugh at (and enjoy) comedians they disagree with all the time - a well crafted joke can be considered well crafted and funny by many people, regardless of the target or the listener’s personal beliefs.

A joke can be funny and disagree with your beliefs if the fact that it disagrees with them is the basis of the joke. Most shock humor is meant to work this way: it's funny because it's completely inappropriate and violating social norms.

The problem with shock humor is that it can still be funny to people who agree with it and can help normalizing the views it's meant to make fun of. You can see this play out in real time on websites like 4chan that always shift from "transgressive humor" to genuine far-right talking points.

If the joke is "women are bad drivers", you either have to agree with the premise (so the joke is likely about the humorously exaggerated extent to which this is confirmed by an anecdote), or the joke is that someone holds this view while presenting evidence to the contrary (so the joke is that the character doesn't understand he's wrong), or the joke is that the view is extremely inappropriate and doesn't follow at all from what is laid out before (so the joke is that the character is so absurdly bigoted they just bring up their prejudices all the time).

Examples for the three structures would be:

1.

2. (optional: )

3.

There are probably a few more of these patterns, but they still work by presenting a position that either agrees with your views, follows logically from them or intentionally contradicts them.

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#149

Post by patcon »

criley2 wrote: post #136
patcon wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jumping to a completely different edge in the graph of human relationships seems like a poor way to get through anything, be it a conversation or an actual social challenge. Networks are local. Speaking and making negating cases based on far-away, low-connectivity areas makes little sense and serves no one except those favouring inaction or an abundance of caution (for whatever reasons). Anyhow, I'm saying the above…

What in the world? This is the most out of place reply I've ever received. I can't begin to understand what you think you read and the volumes of strange assumption you made about me I honestly don't know if this reply represents sanity at all. Literally nothing in the reply even appears to relate to a single word I said. The entire reply appears to be based on a completely different post?

haha oookie dokie. i do ok, thanks[1]. i feel you're reacting to a gentle yet eccentric message in a pretty uncharitable way, and so this interaction would maybe not be productive for either of us

EDIT: ok, against my better judgement, i'll engage and try to communicate better -- the leap where i may have jumped off your train of thought (and it was a jump, but is always very evident to me) is this: i disagree that it's productive to use a relationship between men in china (compared to women in America?) as some sort of measure with which to determine actions that those in other countries should take. I mean this in regards to repairing relationships with women (in the "network of relationships" sense). It's a trap and a red herring to think that way with those comparisons. To continue with that way of rationalizing: if there's some minimum trough of ethics anywhere, we'd always lose energy to do better elsewhere (outside that minimum) until we somehow drag that far-removed minimum up. And since that minimum is likely far away, non-local and hard to affect, then operating this way is a recipe for the least productive mode of using our limited energies for change. This isn't a "women's rights" point I'm making, but about anyone affecting change on anything.

Comparison of how women are treated in their local communities [elsewhere] with how men are treated in China is completely irrelevant and counterproductive imho. Unless someone doesn't want to do anything about it or have responsibility put on them, and wishes to paint a blanket rationale for that -- in which case it's a helpful framing. (Ps, it's totally ok to not work on these things. Life is busy. But it feels particularly unhelpful to rationalize it with weird intentional logic.)

I'm a very network-centric thinker, so this is how I speak and process (at least on HN, if not in real life)

Again, despite you not receiving my message well before, I state again: I say the above kindly, and not with any sort of "argumentative" or "gotcha" style of engagement. I tried to state these as my beliefs, and not some truth of the universe, though maybe i slipped in my language a few times * shrug * Anyhow, hope you're well

[1]: https://twitter.com/patconnolly

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#150

Post by em-bee »

criley2 wrote: post #141
em-bee wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and on the other side there are more women in generally male dominated fields of work in china than in america. win some, loose some. not really helpful to compare that.

It certainly feels like false equivalence to suggest "you win some and lose some" when comparing free speech and political rights to gender representation in some fields. But I'll take your word for it, perhaps there are american women who would trade their right to vote and speak freely in exchange for more of their gender at work with them

you are right it is, i did say those are not really comparable. i was only trying to point out that there are positive aspects and negative aspects to both societies. not that those are equivalent.
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