Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal' • Hacker News Board

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#51

Post by throwaway3699 » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:02 PM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #35

0xy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deep sea welders make significantly more than that, but are at a massively increased risk of injury or death. Should women be thrust into these roles?

Of course not. No one should be ‘thrust’ into any roles, but if women want to do them they should have equal opportunity. And clearly there is some issue of implicit bias, otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion in the first place.

Then what is the solution? Because as far as I can tell, unless you force people to be 50/50 in a profession, it will be basically impossible to get rid of the implicit bias people have in those jobs. And I'd be willing to bet that applies to other immutable characteristics, not just gender.

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#52

Post by notsureaboutpg » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:02 PM UTC

hnbad wrote: post #27

supergirl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it would be funny if it wasn't sad that women are so far behind that a woman ship captain is news.

The news story is literally that she's the _first_ female captain, so it's safe to say that there are probably a lot of deeply entrenched prejudices against women in those roles. Jokes are (almost?) always political because it only works if you share similar views about what the world is like and how it should be. In this case the joke is that women are unfit to be captain, the setup is that "they" eventually "let" a…

Or maybe instead of everyone in all of the past being biased unfairly against women in strenuous, rough, deadly roles, we are the biased ones who believe that women and men are so similar that they should all be able to fight in armies, operate dangerous machinery and equipment, etc. Etc. in equal proportions.

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#53

Post by spuz » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:02 PM UTC

hnbad wrote: post #3

Well, that was probably predictable. If the news coverage of her being the "first female ship's captain" happened near the same time as the Suez Canal incident, those two stories can easily be conflated into a "told you so" narrative to justify condescension towards women aspiring to be ship's captains. It doesn't matter whether the correlation is real because the narrative feeds into existing stereotypes and anyone…

Are you claiming the fake Arab News story was created by accident? No, it was deliberate misinformation intended to generate views and attention. There is nothing predictable about it beyond the fact it is shitty behaviour.

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#54

Post by runawaybottle » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #6

hnbad wrote: post #3

Well, that was probably predictable. If the news coverage of her being the "first female ship's captain" happened near the same time as the Suez Canal incident, those two stories can easily be conflated into a "told you so" narrative to justify condescension towards women aspiring to be ship's captains. It doesn't matter whether the correlation is real because the narrative feeds into existing stereotypes and anyone…

Or, is just a "fun" joke that ties into stereotypes. "Haha, told you women couldn't drive, look at this one stopping global trade" and then it spirals out of control. Not sure we can or should read too much into it.

In the Arab world, they are not joking around about looking at women as second class.

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#55

Post by Daho0n » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:04 PM UTC

supergirl wrote: post #13

capableweb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, is just a "fun" joke that ties into stereotypes. "Haha, told you women couldn't drive, look at this one stopping global trade" and then it spirals out of control. Not sure we can or should read too much into it.

it would be funny if it wasn't sad that women are so far behind that a woman ship captain is news.

Not that it's okay but note that it is "first in Egypt" which is a lot less surprising. Outside Egypt it is a lot more common. I know a few female captains in places like in the Danish shipping company Mærsk (like this ships captain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_M%C3%A6rsk).

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#56

Post by sradman » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

The Arab News also covered the controversy: Anti-feminist trolls target first Egyptian woman captain with fake Arab News profile [1]. Hopefully the story is covered in non-English news sources as well. I suspect that the coverage will ultimately be good for Marwa Elselehdar and Egyptian women in general.

[1] https://www.arabnews.com/node/1833276/media

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#57

Post by Daho0n » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #29

yostrovs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If lack of female ship captains is a sign that women are far behind, is lack of male school teachers, nurses, and HR professionals a sign that men are far behind?

No, because a cargo ship captain typically makes between $150k-$200k a year.

On an Egyptian ship? She's the first Egyptian female captain after all.

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#58

Post by notsureaboutpg » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:08 PM UTC

Am I the only person who, while reading the article thought it odd that the examples of her facing "sexism at every turn" were just that all the maritime workers are older men with different mentalities (understandable since it's a dangerous, lonely job and mostly men do almost all dangerous, lonely jobs) and that the general society still looks oddly at women who leave their families and work alone at sea?

Perhaps she is just generalizing? If we took her words at face value as being what the paper described (sexism at every turn), then would that mean simply being an all-male space is inherently sexist?

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#59

Post by rickyci » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:08 PM UTC

sanj wrote: post #39

capableweb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, is just a "fun" joke that ties into stereotypes. "Haha, told you women couldn't drive, look at this one stopping global trade" and then it spirals out of control. Not sure we can or should read too much into it.

HN is a place for data: https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/27/1/71.abstract Men pose higher per-km risk to others than women for all modes except buses, as well as being over-represented among users of the most dangerous vehicles. (From abstract)

I assume that might be because data collected historically shows men to be overwhemingly the one driving. So this correlation is dumb

Re: Marwa Elselehdar: 'I was blamed for blocking the Suez Canal'

#60

Post by kristianc » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #38

supergirl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it would be funny if it wasn't sad that women are so far behind that a woman ship captain is news.

I don't understand the 'behind' bit. What's 'behind' about not being a cargo ship captain? Do you have to force people into roles they don't want just to create a statistic to suggest equality?

Do you believe that there’s a perfect mapping between ‘jobs that people want’ and ‘representation in those jobs’?

And if so, how do you account for the fact that a) people working in the industries themselves cite that there is work to do on gender diversity and b) that the disparity remains even when you control for manual/heavy physical work (i.e you account only for people working in desk / design based AEC roles)?