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The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

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Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#51

Post by hackoder »

jarin wrote: post #37

I think this is why so many developers have switched to Macs. Development on Windows sucks (in my opinion, of course, unless you're making Windows applications), and with OS X you get the best of both worlds: the power and flexibility of BSD, along with great desktop applications and a nice day-to-day user experience that "just works". Do I really want to worry about what sound driver I'm using, when I have clients w…

Why does development on windows suck? For the most part, development on any platform (windows, osx, linux) seems to be about the same. Its the other stuff that can get annoying; mostly driver issues I would guess. But again, that's something that isn't a challenge on windows anyway?

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#52

Post by mkr-hn »

ajross wrote: post #45
mkr-hn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue is that the Linux applications I use have good Windows ports, and it's hard to find motivation to improve an OS I don't use. There are even some Windows applications I use that don't have a Linux port. The usual response is "run it in WINE," but then I ask "why?" It already works! Linux is already a fine server OS and ecosystem. I think the "Linux desktop" has become less relevant with the rise of smartphone…

Linux is a fine desktop OS and ecosystem, you just don't use it so you don't care. I'm in exactly the opposite situation. Find me a windows editor like X11 emacs. A windows terminal editor that even comes close to gnome-terminal or konsole? These are my killer apps. And I won't use other platforms because they don't have them.

This is something that keeps coming up, so I made a blog post out of it to avoid writing out the same response repeatedly: http://mkronline.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/why-i-dont-use-lin...

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#53

Post by hackoder »

twopoint718 wrote: post #42
rchowe wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is a different story. Even though it's based on Linux and is supposedly "open source", Google's still the driving force behind its development. So the problems the article points out with the linux development process won't really apply to Android. Canonical partnered with Dell for a while to get Ubuntu on a few systems (Dell had been looking for an alternative to windows and had gone to Apple to try to licen…

I think companies (yes companies) like System76 are the only real way forward for Linux On The Desktop but I think that they tend to get ignored in this discussion. Linux already has prominent commercial backing (Red Hat, Canonical, IBM, etc.) for server-focused systems and applications. And indeed, in this arena Linux has been very successful. Where these sorts of complaints should fall are directly on system builde…

You said it is "good hardware". Do you mean that the build quality is good? Is it on par with a MacBook or a ThinkPad? I have heard recently that their laptops are fairly plasticky and battery life isn't great either. Comments?

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#54

Post by telemachos »

Wickk wrote: post #47
ajross wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux is a fine desktop OS and ecosystem, you just don't use it so you don't care. I'm in exactly the opposite situation. Find me a windows editor like X11 emacs. A windows terminal editor that even comes close to gnome-terminal or konsole? These are my killer apps. And I won't use other platforms because they don't have them.

>gnome-terminal or konsole? These are my killer apps. And I won't use other platforms because they don't have them. So wait, is it your love of these specific terminal emulators or of the shell? OSX has terminal.app

> OSX has terminal.app

In fairness it took until Leopard (as I recall) to support tabs and still doesn't support 256 colors. (It will in Lion apparently.[1]).

[1] http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html#unix

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#55

Post by jarin »

hackoder wrote: post #51
jarin wrote: post #37

I think this is why so many developers have switched to Macs. Development on Windows sucks (in my opinion, of course, unless you're making Windows applications), and with OS X you get the best of both worlds: the power and flexibility of BSD, along with great desktop applications and a nice day-to-day user experience that "just works". Do I really want to worry about what sound driver I'm using, when I have clients w…

Why does development on windows suck? For the most part, development on any platform (windows, osx, linux) seems to be about the same. Its the other stuff that can get annoying; mostly driver issues I would guess. But again, that's something that isn't a challenge on windows anyway?

For me it's mostly the ease (or lack of ease) of managing tools and dependencies. Homebrew, RVM, Pow, zsh, MacVim (or TextMate if that's your thing), et al. are amazing, not to mention all of the built-in packages.

I'm aware that some things are usable via cygwin, but in my experience it's a huge pain and doesn't work with a ton of stuff I need anyway. I really don't like spending time futzing around with things if I don't have to, I just want to be able to "brew install redis" and be on my way.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#56

Post by WayneDB »

hackoder wrote: post #51
jarin wrote: post #37

I think this is why so many developers have switched to Macs. Development on Windows sucks (in my opinion, of course, unless you're making Windows applications), and with OS X you get the best of both worlds: the power and flexibility of BSD, along with great desktop applications and a nice day-to-day user experience that "just works". Do I really want to worry about what sound driver I'm using, when I have clients w…

Why does development on windows suck? For the most part, development on any platform (windows, osx, linux) seems to be about the same. Its the other stuff that can get annoying; mostly driver issues I would guess. But again, that's something that isn't a challenge on windows anyway?

He's saying that from Windows, developing code that will eventually run on *nix, is tougher. Of course the opposite is true as well.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#57

Post by mbubb »

Spyro7 wrote: post #3

I feel like I've read over 20 of these articles lately. I have used linux on the desktop in some form or another since 1998. It works, trust me. I find it strange that the author says they should have gone back to FreeBSD. In terms of "desktop" experience, both of these operating systems are somewhat similar. I understand his complaints about the driver situation, but, really, this just means that you need to do some…

Good point. I have used it since 2005 (when my MacBook pro mobo cracked). And it works. I load up on ram and use virtualbox for those few things...

Using HP business grade laptops I have never had an insurmountable problem.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#58

Post by yaix »

Couldn't agree more. I am using Ubuntu for many years and would never ever switch back to Windows or OSX. Despite the many flaws, Ubuntu (on Gnome and now Unity) is still better.

But I would really really love if Canonical would just do one bug-patch-only release. Half a year of just fixing and cleaning up things would really help.

Unfortunately, I doubt that it will ever happen.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#59

Post by WayneDB »

revorad wrote: post #5

Unless something radically changes in the near future I don’t see how Linux can rise up to be a mainstream desktop OS. ... Desktop Linux has to be made somehow profitable for companies to start investing more heavily in it. This is the hard, but honest truth. As long as the primarily development is carried out with little (or no funding), mostly by volunteers the hour of the desktop Linux will never come. The radical…

Do you really think that desktop computers will become completely irrelevant? Are you talking about all sectors (devs, businesses + consumers) or just consumers?

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#60

Post by reirob »

Very good article - both Part I and II. I completely understand the feelings of the author and I appreciate his constructive advices after so much pain.

I am using/used Linux since '95. On my family's laptop Ubuntu 10.10 is still running, but I have the feeling it is the last Ubuntu version that we will use until the laptop dies - but I will not update to newer releases unless Ubuntu brings a desktop that improves usability without requiring 3D to work or Linux will get support for my graphics card, so at least I could try Unity. When we have to buy a new laptop it will be with Windows or maybe ChromeOS. I just do not want to go again through all the pains when choosing new hardware.

For my personal/professional laptops I switched to Windows 5 years ago. Sometimes I need Linux to test some development then I install a VM. No hassle any more. As I missed bash as well, I installed Cygwin.

I feel that additionally there are other world changes that drain the Linux desktop users:

1.) Desktops (no matter if it is Unix/Win/MacOS) do NOT matter as much as they used too. Since the time when I bought a modern phone, I realized that I actually use the laptops only when I need to write longer texts or print out something. Browsing/mailing/chatting/playing/skyping is a better experience on the phone than on the desktop (on the phone however typing is really bad).

2.) Windows became much better (if you skip Vista) since XP.

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