The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II • Hacker News Board

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#41

Post by pandeiro » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 1:41 PM UTC

ryan_brunner wrote: post #36

KonradKlause wrote: post #2

Can we please stop this? When you don't like Linux on your desktop, don't use it. It's that easy.

The thing is, these complaints usually come from people who WANT linux to succeed on the desktop. I'm certainly one of those people - one of those poor unfortunate souls doing RoR development on a PC. Windows isn't a great option for me because the development ecosystem around Ruby on Windows is still fairly immature. Linux would be a perfect solution, if I could get more than a hour of battery life out of my laptop,…

Give up or don't give up, but agonizing about it accomplishes nothing. 6 months ago I received a new laptop that "just didn't work on Linux." I did a lot of research, tried different distros, hacked on it a lot, and now it is a dream to use, gets excellent battery life, and even suspend/resume work beautifully. Hackers don't agonize over this kind of shit, they get to work. If you don't want to invest the time, your choice is investing your $$$ in a Mac. Personally I am so happy with my laptop now that if someone offered me a brand new Macbook Whatever, for free, I'd say "No, thanks." Seriously.

Good luck.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#42

Post by twopoint718 » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 1:58 PM UTC

rchowe wrote: post #28

IvarTJ wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android seems to be an example of a Linux-based operating system becoming successful partially because of its importance to hardware vendors. Could Linux distributions in general benefit from a hardware vendor becoming the goto vendor for Linux-running laptops and/or desktops?

Android is a different story. Even though it's based on Linux and is supposedly "open source", Google's still the driving force behind its development. So the problems the article points out with the linux development process won't really apply to Android. Canonical partnered with Dell for a while to get Ubuntu on a few systems (Dell had been looking for an alternative to windows and had gone to Apple to try to licen…

I think companies (yes companies) like System76 are the only real way forward for Linux On The Desktop but I think that they tend to get ignored in this discussion. Linux already has prominent commercial backing (Red Hat, Canonical, IBM, etc.) for server-focused systems and applications. And indeed, in this arena Linux has been very successful. Where these sorts of complaints should fall are directly on system builders (the Dells of the world). When someone hears about Linux, it should be possible for them to go to a store and maybe check one out.

Think about the last time you bought something. Did you go to a shop and kick the tires a bit? When I wanted an Android phone that was unconnected to any particular carrier, I was lucky enough that Best Buy was partnered up with Google. I could hold a Nexus S and see if I liked it before I bought one. This hands-on experience matters. Your local LUG is trying to get the word out, but they're volunteers. We need more businesses who have a vested interest in selling Linux to regular users. When they are, then the product will be a better fit for those users. This is the difference between 'The Spirit of St. Louis' and American Airlines.

Full disclosure, I bought a System76 machine and I'm very happy with it. It's good hardware and it all worked (and not just "works for me", but really worked). Getting a product like this is a good fit for a certain type of computer user. I have owned and bought computers before. It's refreshing to get a new computer that doesn't have layer upon layer of crapware pre-installed and I wasn't in need of some fetishistic unboxing experience; it came in a box that, when opened, it worked out of.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#43

Post by twopoint718 » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 2:03 PM UTC

carmen wrote: post #15

dexen wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

`Don't use Linux' is not `that easy'; pause for a moment and think about it. He can't go *BSD way, because drivers are scarcier, and that's a big no-no for him. And even more scarce on other less popular OSes, like Plan 9. He can't go MS Windows way, because it's less usable for him (duh). He can't go MacOS X because, uh, I dunno, personal preferences? Pricetag of the hardware+software? He whines and rehashes old arg…

he could throw a maximized webkit and editor in ~/.xinitrc but he wouldnt have anything to complain about

Haha, take it just a bit farther. When you get hooked on a tiling window manager, all this twisting in the wind over what KDE/GNOME 3.0/Unity will do next really evaporates. The "surface area" of the GUI is so small there's very little to find issue with.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#44

Post by qusiba » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 2:08 PM UTC

I tried to install ubuntu on my new laptop recently. Honestly, it feels as bad as it did 10 years ago.

Weird installation trap. Can't find drivers for my wireless adaptor. Sleep sometimes work, sometimes not. Tons of big or small problems like this.

Yeah, after long hours of research, I got resolved most of the issues. But I doubt anyone who has less patience or less understanding of computer than I do would simply say "damn it!"

Yeah, it could work, but it's crappy.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#45

Post by ajross » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 2:23 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #33

emilsedgh wrote: post #26

Dislacimer: I've been involved in the KDE community in the past few years. However, im not a core developer or a decision maker and I just make very side contributions. What follows are my thoughts and obviously not KDE's. Main issues behind Linux on desktop: 1) Motivation. Volunteers are doing an incredible job. Truly amazing. Outstanding. No word describes it. However, how much can you expect from them? Most linux-…

My issue is that the Linux applications I use have good Windows ports, and it's hard to find motivation to improve an OS I don't use. There are even some Windows applications I use that don't have a Linux port. The usual response is "run it in WINE," but then I ask "why?" It already works! Linux is already a fine server OS and ecosystem. I think the "Linux desktop" has become less relevant with the rise of smartphone…

Linux is a fine desktop OS and ecosystem, you just don't use it so you don't care. I'm in exactly the opposite situation. Find me a windows editor like X11 emacs. A windows terminal editor that even comes close to gnome-terminal or konsole? These are my killer apps. And I won't use other platforms because they don't have them.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#46

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 2:29 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #45

mkr-hn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue is that the Linux applications I use have good Windows ports, and it's hard to find motivation to improve an OS I don't use. There are even some Windows applications I use that don't have a Linux port. The usual response is "run it in WINE," but then I ask "why?" It already works! Linux is already a fine server OS and ecosystem. I think the "Linux desktop" has become less relevant with the rise of smartphone…

Linux is a fine desktop OS and ecosystem, you just don't use it so you don't care. I'm in exactly the opposite situation. Find me a windows editor like X11 emacs. A windows terminal editor that even comes close to gnome-terminal or konsole? These are my killer apps. And I won't use other platforms because they don't have them.

[deleted]

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#47

Post by Wickk » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 2:30 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #45

mkr-hn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue is that the Linux applications I use have good Windows ports, and it's hard to find motivation to improve an OS I don't use. There are even some Windows applications I use that don't have a Linux port. The usual response is "run it in WINE," but then I ask "why?" It already works! Linux is already a fine server OS and ecosystem. I think the "Linux desktop" has become less relevant with the rise of smartphone…

Linux is a fine desktop OS and ecosystem, you just don't use it so you don't care. I'm in exactly the opposite situation. Find me a windows editor like X11 emacs. A windows terminal editor that even comes close to gnome-terminal or konsole? These are my killer apps. And I won't use other platforms because they don't have them.

>gnome-terminal or konsole? These are my killer apps. And I won't use other platforms because they don't have them.

So wait, is it your love of these specific terminal emulators or of the shell?

OSX has terminal.app

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#48

Post by jarin » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 2:33 PM UTC

IvarTJ wrote: post #21

httpitis wrote: post #16

To me, the article comes across as a request to the linux community for solving the linux desktop problem. In other words, when given a viable chioce, the author wants linux on his desktop. The author's complaints seems confirmed when looking at the trends [1] in market share for contemporary os's. >Desktop Linux has to be made somehow profitable for companies to start investing more heavily in it... I also believe t…

Android seems to be an example of a Linux-based operating system becoming successful partially because of its importance to hardware vendors. Could Linux distributions in general benefit from a hardware vendor becoming the goto vendor for Linux-running laptops and/or desktops?

Android isn't successful because of Linux, it's successful in spite of Linux. Google chose Linux as a base on which to build what is essentially a new operating system (much like Apple chose BSD to build iOS on).

This is what a cellphone looks like when it's developed entirely by the open source community: http://www.openmoko.com/

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#49

Post by halo » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 2:41 PM UTC

The root causes of Linux's problems are very hard to fix.

It needs to aim to attract commercial developers by adding cohesive APIs and stable ABIs.

That's going to be a real struggle. Linux is too fragmented, there's too much opposition to proprietary software, and the kernel developers don't believe in stable ABIs.

Perhaps some sort of VM, à la Android's Dalvik or .NET, is the best solution for working around most of these problems in one fell swoop. Being OS independent also opens up approaches to solving driver problems in the long-term.

I thought Haiku had a decent shot of avoiding these problems, but my optimism has waned. Its ageing rapidly, development is slow, and rather than trying to attract commercial developers they seem happy to repeat Linux's packaging mistakes.

Re: The Linux desktop experience is killing Linux on the desktop, Part II

#50

Post by flogic » Sat, Jun 18, 2011, 2:47 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #33

emilsedgh wrote: post #26

Dislacimer: I've been involved in the KDE community in the past few years. However, im not a core developer or a decision maker and I just make very side contributions. What follows are my thoughts and obviously not KDE's. Main issues behind Linux on desktop: 1) Motivation. Volunteers are doing an incredible job. Truly amazing. Outstanding. No word describes it. However, how much can you expect from them? Most linux-…

My issue is that the Linux applications I use have good Windows ports, and it's hard to find motivation to improve an OS I don't use. There are even some Windows applications I use that don't have a Linux port. The usual response is "run it in WINE," but then I ask "why?" It already works! Linux is already a fine server OS and ecosystem. I think the "Linux desktop" has become less relevant with the rise of smartphone…

I think is depends heavily on what you're doing and your mental work flows. Personally whenever I use OS X or Windows I feel a tremendous decrease in UI bandwidth. That said, I only use a very tiny portion of the Linux desktop. If I was primarily doing mainstream activities instead of server side software development, I'd probably switch.