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Advice From An Old Programmer

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#201

Post by niels_olson »

F_J_H wrote: post #198
jdietrich wrote: post #196

Once upon a time, I played poker for a living. The most important thing I learned was that the least important factor in how much I earned was my skill at poker. The most important skill was table selection, my decisions over which games to get involved in and who to sit next to. A close second was managing my resources, making sure I was playing within my financial and emotional means. If you want to be world champi…

That was insightful - Thank you.

You know, if we were standing around at an artist's gallery opening, or at a home having dinner and discussion, or just walking down the sidewalk in the flesh-and-blood world, that comment would have been considered a small, but useful and positive contribution to the discussion. In fact, you'd probably know that F_J_H is a successful business owner with 50 employees, so you'd note that that's how successful people behave and try to emulate him. But here, since there's "upvotes", it appears to have gotten a -1 (based on the shade of gray text).

And I want to take the opportunity to say that I think comments like this don't merit negativity. Treat them like you'd treat them in the world: polite comment, move on. It's like walking down the road and there's a purple thistle flower in all its spiny glory. Purple. Pretty. Move on. You don't have to go stamping it out just because there's a social belief that lawns should only have grass.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#202

Post by Dove »

little_droog wrote: post #179
onan_barbarian wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. You appear to be in a selective parsing frenzy. Have fun with that. You attempting to draw Big Important Distinctions between the bits of that particular passage that are 'personal opinion' and 'statement of fact' is at least entertaining, given that the whole piece is _all_ pure opinion.

Can you two just get a room? I think this subthread is providing a fine counterexample to the idea that hiding comment scores magically improves the quality of discussion on HN.

I don't think even the wildest optimist would expect hiding comment scores to tame Zed Shaw.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#203

Post by moheeb »

nightski wrote: post #140
ghotli wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the point of his article. I believe Zed has shown that his mind is perfectly capable of seeing and processing the macro picture. Whether that be language theory, software engineering, or whatever he puts his energies towards. I may not agree with some of his opinions but the volume and quality of his output is indeed impressive. Haskell's type system _is_ complex, but so are most things that are looked upo…

I hate the tool argument. Programming languages are as much a tool as mathematics or English. I think of them more as a method of communication, a way to express your thoughts and ideas. Not only that but they are executable and unambiguous (most of the time heh). A programming language not only has the power to allow you to express your thoughts, but even to even shape them. The power of this field is in its infancy…

" There will be a day when "programming" ... is as natural part of the user experience of machines as browsing facebook might be today."

Are you serious? Like how everyone changes their own oil?

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#204

Post by crasshopper »

crasshopper wrote: post #188

Oh please. You can't make as much money running a fast food joint and you will not be happier, unless that's in your blood. (I know one of the owners of a super-high-grossing KFC and have run a small business myself.) Programming is a cushy, stimulating, high-paying job - and don't you ever forget it.

And, your risk in running a fast food joint is much, much greater. Franchise fees of $100k+, managing employees, avoiding lawsuits because your parking lot has a bump in it, and being in the shop everyday versus...

learning a language is free + telecommute, flexible deadlines + server crash leads merely to whining + Idea Guys have to pay developers and not the other way around.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#205

Post by hmart »

zedshaw wrote: post #173
Johngibb wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely got a different, more inspiring read out of this post. I'd sum it up as "programming for the point of programming will eventually reach a local maximum of enjoyment; focus instead on the creative potential and possible reach of the art programming has enabled you to create." In other words, "make something people want", and from that you will really receive fulfillment. The true, lasting satisfaction tha…

You'll find that this part of the book gets interpreted by different people in different ways. Some folks, usually those who've invested their life in only programming, take it offensively and assume I'm insulting them. Others who are beginners or maybe having a hard time with programming find it inspiring. Still others just find it weird. To each their own.

Programming like writing novels or painting is something you usually do because you love and enjoy but becomes boring when is your 9-5 job.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#206

Post by joebadmo »

niels_olson wrote: post #201
F_J_H wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was insightful - Thank you.

You know, if we were standing around at an artist's gallery opening, or at a home having dinner and discussion, or just walking down the sidewalk in the flesh-and-blood world, that comment would have been considered a small, but useful and positive contribution to the discussion. In fact, you'd probably know that F_J_H is a successful business owner with 50 employees, so you'd note that that's how successful people b…

Seems like a simple matter of signal to noise ratio to me. That single comment by itself does no real harm, but if it's not discouraged, the practice will proliferate.

The situations you cite do not include the potential for noise overwhelming the signal, so they are not analogous.

I know that a downvote can seem like a judgment on the person, but it's more a judgment on the action, and it can be instructive if taken that way.

[Edit: Not that I've been here that long, but that's how I understand the phenomenon.]

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#207

Post by palish »

joebadmo wrote: post #206
niels_olson wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if we were standing around at an artist's gallery opening, or at a home having dinner and discussion, or just walking down the sidewalk in the flesh-and-blood world, that comment would have been considered a small, but useful and positive contribution to the discussion. In fact, you'd probably know that F_J_H is a successful business owner with 50 employees, so you'd note that that's how successful people b…

Seems like a simple matter of signal to noise ratio to me. That single comment by itself does no real harm, but if it's not discouraged, the practice will proliferate. The situations you cite do not include the potential for noise overwhelming the signal, so they are not analogous. I know that a downvote can seem like a judgment on the person, but it's more a judgment on the action, and it can be instructive if taken…

As someone who has been here long, I can say for certain that HN would only benefit from politeness similar to F_J_H.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#208

Post by joebadmo »

palish wrote: post #207
joebadmo wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a simple matter of signal to noise ratio to me. That single comment by itself does no real harm, but if it's not discouraged, the practice will proliferate. The situations you cite do not include the potential for noise overwhelming the signal, so they are not analogous. I know that a downvote can seem like a judgment on the person, but it's more a judgment on the action, and it can be instructive if taken…

As someone who has been here long, I can say for certain that HN would only benefit from politeness similar to F_J_H.

Consider me enlightened. Thanks.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#209

Post by nightski »

moheeb wrote: post #203
nightski wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the tool argument. Programming languages are as much a tool as mathematics or English. I think of them more as a method of communication, a way to express your thoughts and ideas. Not only that but they are executable and unambiguous (most of the time heh). A programming language not only has the power to allow you to express your thoughts, but even to even shape them. The power of this field is in its infancy…

" There will be a day when "programming" ... is as natural part of the user experience of machines as browsing facebook might be today." Are you serious? Like how everyone changes their own oil?

Yes I am very serious.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#210

Post by hackinthebochs »

moheeb wrote: post #203
nightski wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the tool argument. Programming languages are as much a tool as mathematics or English. I think of them more as a method of communication, a way to express your thoughts and ideas. Not only that but they are executable and unambiguous (most of the time heh). A programming language not only has the power to allow you to express your thoughts, but even to even shape them. The power of this field is in its infancy…

" There will be a day when "programming" ... is as natural part of the user experience of machines as browsing facebook might be today." Are you serious? Like how everyone changes their own oil?

I don't see why this idea is so hard to grasp. With the current state of programming languages, definitely not. But I believe much more intuitive forms of programming languages will eventually be made such that your average intelligent user can accomplish non-trivial computation.

Programming languages are the computer analog to natural languages. The real problem is that most of our brains aren't wired for programming languages. If we can bridge that gap, that will completely revolutionize the way people interact with computers.

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