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Advice From An Old Programmer

learnpythonthehardway.org

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#161

Post by zedshaw »

singular wrote: post #117

Though there is some wisdom in what Zed says here, I am getting quite tired of the 'actually, programming itself (especially as a job) is boring' meme, as if saying that marks you out as some sort of world-weary but insightful practitioner of the arts who has somehow risen above the mere trivial and seen it for the dull plod it really is. Please stop telling me what I think + feel about my craft - you feel that way,…

If you read what I actually wrote, instead of what you wanted to hear, you'd see that I said the profession is boring. Why would I write a book teaching people programming if I thought it was boring? Coding is awesome fun and my favorite thing, but damn the job is really super boring.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#162

Post by zedshaw »

catshirt wrote: post #149
zedshaw wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I'm so glad you, the one arbiter of all that is art, is able to correct our misunderstanding of the definition of "art". The truth is, you can't define art, so in the same way I can use paint to paint my house, or use paint to create a portrait, I can use programming for art or just as a day job. Finally, everything that requires skill has craft, even art.

while op is possibly being pedantic, aren't you agreeing with him? shin_lao is suggesting that painting itself is not an art, but a craft. what you do with the paint defines whether or not it is art. likewise, your code can create something menial the same way it can create something artful. being able to program makes you no more of an artist than being able to put paint on a brush. whether or not being able to put…

I have no real idea what he's talking about, since like most pedants, what he talks about isn't really relevant to anyone but him.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#163

Post by zedshaw »

nostrademons wrote: post #119
zedshaw wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gone through http://learnyouahaskell.com/ and it wasn't too hard. About the only difficulty is the pointless and contradictory jargon like "point free" or the hand-waving about Monads and how they violate their purely functional execution model. Never heard of Agda, but then I sort of don't care. Obviously, there are old programmers who are into programming languages, but they usually sit around writing crappy p…

The mark of whether you "know" a programming language isn't whether you've gone through a tutorial; it's whether you can write useful programs in that language.

Uh yeah, there's this thing called experience which allows me to learn a language well enough to realize it's a total load of bullshit. Haskell was exactly like that.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#165

Post by Johngibb »

onan_barbarian wrote: post #125

My guess is that I've been coding for longer than Zed, and I don't remember _ever_ thinking it was boring, and a lot of the stuff he says might be true for Zed, it sure as hell isn't true for the rest of us: "Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. It can be a good job, but if you want to make about the same money and be happier, you could actually just go run a fast food joint." If this is actual…

I definitely got a different, more inspiring read out of this post. I'd sum it up as "programming for the point of programming will eventually reach a local maximum of enjoyment; focus instead on the creative potential and possible reach of the art programming has enabled you to create." In other words, "make something people want", and from that you will really receive fulfillment.

The true, lasting satisfaction that you'll look back on 20 years from now isn't the number of programming languages you've learned, but what you've created and the impact those creations have had on those who have used them.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#166

Post by zedshaw »

schiptsov wrote: post #145

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism Coding and software engineering are not the same knowledge. Coding is just a small part of the big discipline. The difference between software engineer and a coder with even years of practice is the same as between a poet and a full-time typist. Memorizing syntax (and may be even some standard idioms) of 20 different languages doesn't make you a software engineer, and of course…

Wait, so you link to the wikipedia page on Narcissim, then spend 9 paragraphs pontificating on my experience and how you know all about me in a way that assumes everyone cares what you think?

Right, I'm the narcissist.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#168

Post by zedshaw »

seagaia wrote: post #135
zedshaw wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gone through http://learnyouahaskell.com/ and it wasn't too hard. About the only difficulty is the pointless and contradictory jargon like "point free" or the hand-waving about Monads and how they violate their purely functional execution model. Never heard of Agda, but then I sort of don't care. Obviously, there are old programmers who are into programming languages, but they usually sit around writing crappy p…

"You know, kind of like Haskell." Ow ow - come on now, there are definitely practical applications of Haskell. It just has a painful learning curve, but it's very elegant in the end.

Hey, I have to call it like I see it. I find Haskell very unusable and their base philosophy just doesn't jibe with what I know of actual software development or logic.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#169

Post by Johngibb »

Ryanmf wrote: post #152
roadnottaken wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when everybody is trained with at least a basic ability to program, then your super advantage is gone Yes, but like Math, not everybody can be trained in it. People either get math or they don't. Everybody has to take calculus to become a scientist or a doctor but most people never really get it and forget it shortly after taking the classes. I imagine the same will happen with programming: there will be a few requir…

1. Take this problem (with working-age Americans/First-world westerners): 2. Add 600 million Indians, 500 MM Chinese, 110 MM Americans, 100 MM Indonesians, 80+ MM Brazilians, and 40+ MM Russians under the age of 25 [1]. 3. Mix thoroughly in your Internet's blender of culture and ethics. 4. Vigorously shake world economic dynamics, then allow 10 years to settle. 5. Voilà! [1] Population data from Wolframalpha.

I am constantly worried about this. We (as software developers) are in a time where the ability to code is scarce, and very valuable. But, at some point in time so was being a carpenter, or a toolmaker, or any other skilled profession whose value over time has diminished. In 5 or 10 years, the sole ability to code will probably diminish in value, become more of a commodity, easier to learn, and maybe even become a low-end profession.

However, the ability to create a product from scratch, using programming as your toolkit, will always remain valuable. Focus on that - using programming as a means to an end of creating useful products - and you can't be marginalized by a glut of programmers.

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