Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write • Hacker News Board

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#281

Post by wombatmobile » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #200

rgifford wrote: post #175

A friend of mine decided to pursue music production around the same time I started in software engineering. We're both 20 somethings. We swap war stories now and then. I get to hear about how he's working with his mentor to do vocal production on a track getting pitched for Maroon 5, The Chainsmokers, etc. Sometimes the tracks take -- the artist likes them and decides to move forward. Usually they don't and it's a lo…

I thought songwriters had some sort of union or industry group that went to bat for them? The article and this discussion makes it sound that doesn't exist. edit: hmm, ASCAP and Songwriters guild are a couple names that come up... though this might be something of a dispute within different groups within ASCAP..

There is nothing to bat for i.e. no royalties until the song has been sold.

No song can be sold in significant number until it has been recorded by a famous artist backed by a well resourced record company.

By the time a song has been sold in significant numbers, it is too late for ASCAP or the Songwriters Guild to act, because the song has already been credited to an artist who didn't actually write it, because the songwriter signed away his or her rights in order to bootstrap the song.

You may think "that's not fair", and you may be right, but the difficulty is that a famous artist can make as much money selling a song that is not quite as good as a "great" song, and the supply of OK songs far exceeds the supply of "great" songs.

What even is a "great" song? It is difficult to tell, and even more difficult to prove, until it has been recorded by a "great" artist, and bought by millions of fans of said artist.

By that point, a contract exists crediting the "great" artist with writing or co-writing the song. This contract can be defended in a court of law by an ordinary lawyer working for a "great" record company, or better still, by a "great" lawyer working for a "great" record company.

When it comes to greatness, the medium is the message.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#282

Post by 8bitsrule » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

Songwriters getting the short stick is an old fact in the 'industry'. (There's a Songwriter's Hall of Fame - ever seen it's inductees on TV?)

Back in the rock'n'roll era, with the new 'teenager' category raining allowances on labels, label-owners often got a co-writer credit on songs. (And then there was the vinyl shipped 'off the books'.) They also typically grabbed up publishing rights.

Since streaming began: I've seen figures like $2 per 1000 streams for big-name artists. I've never seen figures mentioned for songwriters. At one time a top-10 hit might be covered by dozens of big names (each a potential revenue source for decades) - today stuff comes & goes quickly.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#283

Post by farfacy » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #52

bioinformatics wrote: post #17

Who's taking claim for WAP?

Several people, all listed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAP_(song) . The song has topped numerous charts, for instance Pitchfork and Rolling Stone's best song of 2020. Why wouldn't they want to take credit?

All the people who created WAP are not listed in this link. On Spotify, WAP's credits list

Performed by

Cardi B, Megan Thee Stallion

Written by

Austin Owens, Belcalis Almanzar, Frank Rodriguez, James Foye iii, Jordan Thorpe, Megan Pete

Produced by

Ayo & Keyz

We can compare this to a Kpop song called IDEA that 2 of the same people who wrote WAP worked on

Performed by

Taemin

Written by

Adrian Mckinnon, Austin Owens, James Foye iii, Jimmy Claeson, Moon Seol Ree, Tay Jasper

Western stars are extremely dishonest about their input into their music.

Korean TV giving credit to the songwriters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4wOjOEcRZg

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#284

Post by jdavis703 » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

mettamage wrote: post #262

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most fair way to handle group projects grading was in my capstone business management course. At the end, the 6 of us each had to (privately) rank everyone else according to their contribution, and the assessment by your peers was 20% of the grade for the project. Because someone had to come in last place, it eased a lot of the tension and created a much more pleasant group dynamic: - The free-rider(s) wer…

I wonder how a group of pure go-getters would fare on a grade structure like this.

We had a fairly similar grading program in my IT capstone project. The professor made it clear that if a group had either a total grifter or was an all-star team exceptions could be made. We had to give lots of presentations and question and answer sessions. It was generally pretty clear to the entire class which students were slackers and couldn't answer questions and which ones knew their stuff.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#285

Post by asphaltycode » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #119

asphaltycode wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it’s a joke

What makes it a joke? Why is it funny? Explain to everyone why no one wanting to take credit for WAP is funny. I don't think there's a reason that doesn't circle back to my original assessment of the guy.

Because the lyrics are amazingly vulgar and are inappropriate for most conversations.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#286

Post by dctoedt » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

wombatmobile wrote: post #276

saurik wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My friend's mentor is late 30s and mainly does songwriting. ... He went from "how do I pay rent" to 7M literally over night. > The people who make the most look good, sound good, and hell they're crazy talented. But they aren't the people who've written the lyrics or the melodies that define our culture. I am confused by the story: isn't the person who made the big bucks here a person who "mainly does songwriting"?

> I am confused by the story: isn't the person who made the big bucks here a person who "mainly does songwriting"? The law says the songwriter is entitled to songwriting royalties. In practice, famous artists' managers negotiate with poor unknown songwriters to take a percentage of the songwriters royalty by pretending that the artist co-wrote or wholly wrote the song. This is made possible by supply and demand, and…

> famous artists' managers negotiate with poor unknown songwriters to take a percentage of the songwriters royalty by pretending that the artist co-wrote or wholly wrote the song.

That might not be strictly necessary, because in the U.S., there's such a thing as a performer's copyright in the (recorded) performance itself, separate from the songwriter's copyright in the song. [0]

[0] https://www.ip-watch.org/2014/11/24/us-courts-recognise-new-...

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#287

Post by akdor1154 » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

Vietnamese pop music is really interesting in that songwriters will normally be credited alongside the artist at the start of music videos.

I wonder if we could ever see this in the west.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#288

Post by s1artibartfast » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

Varriount wrote: post #214

Johnny555 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He moved to WA to dodge CA income tax If he waited for the big check before he made that move, CA will find him - it's not where you live when you got the check, it's where you live when you earned it.

Perhaps it's naive of me, but I can't help but look down on this kind of behavior. I know that tax money is rarely spent in the most efficient way possible, but (ideally) the point of taxes is that they go to benefit the general public. Moving just so one doesn't have to pay as much, after (presumably) living in the state for some time feels selfish and greedy.

It really depends on your priors. If you think California is lighting the money on fire or taxes are theft, it is pretty easy to justify.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#289

Post by Johnny555 » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #272

thanhhaimai wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1, moving intentionally to avoid this is asking for a lot of trouble, especially for a bill that large. I hope he consulted his financial advisors.

> I hope he consulted his financial advisors and if he did, he'd learn that 5 minutes of estate planning makes it ridiculously easy to avoid having any trouble, especially for a bill that large so if you know, you know if you don't, then you might find yourself bombarded by misinformation regarding the music industry, and state taxes on a programming forum

What is the 5 minute fix that would allow someone to escape tax liability for income earned (but not yet received) while working in California?

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#290

Post by hellbannedguy » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

Varriount wrote: post #214

Johnny555 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He moved to WA to dodge CA income tax If he waited for the big check before he made that move, CA will find him - it's not where you live when you got the check, it's where you live when you earned it.

Perhaps it's naive of me, but I can't help but look down on this kind of behavior. I know that tax money is rarely spent in the most efficient way possible, but (ideally) the point of taxes is that they go to benefit the general public. Moving just so one doesn't have to pay as much, after (presumably) living in the state for some time feels selfish and greedy.

I would allow them to move to avoid paying less, but put a 15 year time limit on moving back.

If you move back before, you pay the original tax?

The same for corporations who move to the lowest taxed country.

Apple wants to pay Irish tax rates, then pack up CEO, CFO, and all employees in management positions and move to Ireland and Zoom. Your troops can stay here.

(Your first few big pay days should be exempt from all taxes though, especially if you can prove your were poor, or middle class in the previous 10 years? I’ve never felt it was fair for a guy whom got lucky in business, or life, having to pay a big tax; especially if they were scraping by in previous years. Am I saying the poor unemployed guy who one the lottery shouldn’t have to pay any tax on that first lottery win in life, or business—-yes. Our social safety net is so terrible here, it can’t be an excuse to tax new found wealth. America does not help out it’s poor well enough to tax those first few big pay days.)