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Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#271

Post by FooHentai »

alpha_squared wrote: post #255
ljf wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit, I can work wherever I can find work (and legally work) around the world, earn a fortune and not pay any tax in the UK, /and/ keep my citizenship. I only would pay tax to the UK on income I earn here (which in itself leads to all kinds of strange and dodgy scenarios in terms of people avoiding paying taxes here)

This is ultimately political and comes down to perspective and opinion. As a citizen, you benefit from many things of your home country regardless of whether or not you reside there. Such as, for example, your home country's ability to exert pressure on the government of where you reside when you're unjustly arrested/detained. There's also access to the consulate of your home country and all services you have access…

There’s also the behaviour it incentivises - if you’ve moved abroad and intend to stay there long term, secure citizenship there and renounce your American citizenship to avoid double taxation.

The USA isn’t exactly hurting for new citizens and it’s probably desirable to have expats incentivised to deliberately relinquish their passports.

Mind you I’m looking at this from the perspective of here in New Zealand, where there’s regular media stories about Australia deporting NZ citizens who moved over there as kids and ended up criminals. There’s no incentives to relinquish an NZ passport so Australia can revoke their citizenship, deport, and they become NZs problem.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#272

Post by vmception »

thanhhaimai wrote: post #205
Johnny555 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He moved to WA to dodge CA income tax If he waited for the big check before he made that move, CA will find him - it's not where you live when you got the check, it's where you live when you earned it.

+1, moving intentionally to avoid this is asking for a lot of trouble, especially for a bill that large. I hope he consulted his financial advisors.

> I hope he consulted his financial advisors

and if he did, he'd learn that 5 minutes of estate planning makes it ridiculously easy to avoid having any trouble, especially for a bill that large

so if you know, you know

if you don't, then you might find yourself bombarded by misinformation regarding the music industry, and state taxes on a programming forum

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#273

Post by spoonjim »

emodendroket wrote: post #150
spoonjim wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be a pseudonym for someone whose image would suffer if they were seen to be writing Taylor Swift songs?

No, she’s a very successful country songwriter. Can’t see why she wouldn’t want the association.

What if it’s someone like Eminem?

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#274

Post by dragonwriter »

kmeisthax wrote: post #223
Varriount wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's naive of me, but I can't help but look down on this kind of behavior. I know that tax money is rarely spent in the most efficient way possible, but (ideally) the point of taxes is that they go to benefit the general public. Moving just so one doesn't have to pay as much, after (presumably) living in the state for some time feels selfish and greedy.

Some states actually have laws specifically to prevent this. For example, if you work remote for a company based in NY, PA, CT, DE, AR, or NE; your income is taxable in that state regardless of where you live or work. This is known as a "convenience of the employer" test. In fact, before a certain SCOTUS ruling you couldn't even claim a refund on that tax for your residence state's tax return (and even after, that re…

> it goes against the whole concept of freedom of movement

Freedom of movement is free as in libre, not free as in gratis. “You owe taxes if you leave” isn't a violation of freedom of movement.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#275

Post by vmception »

Varriount wrote: post #214
Johnny555 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He moved to WA to dodge CA income tax If he waited for the big check before he made that move, CA will find him - it's not where you live when you got the check, it's where you live when you earned it.

Perhaps it's naive of me, but I can't help but look down on this kind of behavior. I know that tax money is rarely spent in the most efficient way possible, but (ideally) the point of taxes is that they go to benefit the general public. Moving just so one doesn't have to pay as much, after (presumably) living in the state for some time feels selfish and greedy.

If you've ever driven to a different county to get cheaper gas, or chose a house in a certain municipality to get a lower property tax, or purchased nearby for a lower sales tax, or didn't compute it yourself to send to your state after an online purchase, it's the exact same thing.

This has been reinforced by the Supreme Court who could find no distinction between any socioeconomic class optimizing their tax burden, no matter how accessible the privilege becomes for some.

> Perhaps it's naive of me,

I think it would be considered naive to elevate the greed of the state over the greed of an individual. Your current train of thought doesn't seem to factor it in at all, it seems more like "if this kind of authority asks, because I respect it, I must comply" which makes me wonder where the limits are. Any state? Any due process outcome? Any percentage? Would you consider to read the state's law to discover that you are not subjected to the payment in many circumstances that you can create? To me, thats where the naivete lies.

My current thoughts on taxes are that the state incentivizes certain kinds of transactions. And if you don't engage in those kind of transactions then the state taxes a percentage of the remainder. The percentage of the tax being a deterrent, as it would prefer you put your money to use in other ways so that you never pay it. Spending, investments, etc. Which this logic its not about imagining that you are passively paying for roads and schools (you aren't, you are paying interest on the funds the state borrowed from the international markets to pay for the roads and schools that were already going to be paid for regardless, the ones that would be neglected would still be neglected). This is most directly seen with the old healthcare fine: if you don't have healthcare through an employer and don't pay for the affordable care act plan then you pay a $1,000 tax. They are incentivizing you to shift capital to certain areas of the economy, with the fallback being the state. This will be a more productive way for you to think of all transactions with the state.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#276

Post by wombatmobile »

saurik wrote: post #244
rgifford wrote: post #175

A friend of mine decided to pursue music production around the same time I started in software engineering. We're both 20 somethings. We swap war stories now and then. I get to hear about how he's working with his mentor to do vocal production on a track getting pitched for Maroon 5, The Chainsmokers, etc. Sometimes the tracks take -- the artist likes them and decides to move forward. Usually they don't and it's a lo…

> My friend's mentor is late 30s and mainly does songwriting. ... He went from "how do I pay rent" to 7M literally over night. > The people who make the most look good, sound good, and hell they're crazy talented. But they aren't the people who've written the lyrics or the melodies that define our culture. I am confused by the story: isn't the person who made the big bucks here a person who "mainly does songwriting"?

> I am confused by the story: isn't the person who made the big bucks here a person who "mainly does songwriting"?

The law says the songwriter is entitled to songwriting royalties.

In practice, famous artists' managers negotiate with poor unknown songwriters to take a percentage of the songwriters royalty by pretending that the artist co-wrote or wholly wrote the song.

This is made possible by supply and demand, and asymmetrical market access.

Famous artists can sell millions of recordings, even if the songs aren't so great. They have long queues of songwriters trying to offer them material for that reason.

Great unknown songwriters can't sell great songs unless they are recorded by someone famous or connected, because nobody will hear them.

To resolve these dynamics and make deals, mangers since ancient times have made talented unknown songwriters offers they can't refuse: Give away a percentage of the songwriting royalty (by crediting an artist for co-writing or writing the melody or the lyric) in exchange for jumping ahead of other talented unknown songwriters in the queue to get to market.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#277

Post by sushid »

Johnny555 wrote: post #234
throwaway1777 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

850k is worth moving to another state for a year, especially if this is not repeatable income, but that’s just me.

I think it'd have to be more than a year if you really want to escape taxation. If you leave the state, earn $7M, then move back a year later, California is going to be taking a close look at when you actually earned that money. Though moving is easier and cheaper for a single person living in an apartment than someone with a family and house.

If it's legit, why does it matter? Presumably that person's song took off and they were able to forecast that they'd make $X, which was worth the move to WA.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#278

Post by vmception »

Johnny555 wrote: post #221
throwaway1777 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it’s greedy, but on the other hand wouldn’t you be crazy to not try to get out of paying millions in taxes?

Though it's not millions in this case, the top marginal tax rate in CA is 12%, so he's saving at most $850K if this was a one-time $7M payment. Not sure that 12% is worth picking up my family and moving to another state if that's the only reason to relocate. CA and WA weather and lifestyle is much different than what he saw in Southern California (I'm guessing that's where he lived since he was in the music industry)…

You only have to relocate for a maximum 6 months and 1 day. As in, your US address needs to be in the lower tax state.

So, if its after June when your windfall hits, that particular option is removed and you have to focus on offsetting deductions.

But it resets January 1, every year :)

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#279

Post by philmcc »

sorokod wrote: post #268
hammock wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They kind of say: "look good, sound good." Having worked in this industry myself, is it definitely a talent to have good stage presence, good presence in front of a videocamera, photogenic and modeling skills. Not to mention charisma when dealing with radio and TV interviews, fanbase, etc. It's also a talent to sing well, to sing consistently, to be able to channel inflection and emotion on command in a studio or on…

But that was always the case. I have the (perhaps incorrect) impression that over time, pop performers perform someone else's materials more and more.

It wasn't really always the case. If you scroll back, so to speak, a generation or so, the further and further you get, the less necessary it was to win the trifecta of being Attractive, A Dancer, and a Live Performer. Let alone songwriter. There's only so many people that are all 4 and you know all of them by name.

You could be VERY plain looking, and unable to dance at all, and chart in in 1965.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#280

Post by Johnny555 »

sushid wrote: post #277
Johnny555 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it'd have to be more than a year if you really want to escape taxation. If you leave the state, earn $7M, then move back a year later, California is going to be taking a close look at when you actually earned that money. Though moving is easier and cheaper for a single person living in an apartment than someone with a family and house.

If it's legit, why does it matter? Presumably that person's song took off and they were able to forecast that they'd make $X, which was worth the move to WA.

If he's moving to escape taxation, it's not legit (in the eyes of the Franchise Tax Board), and if he did the work while he was living in California, they're going to want (and almost certainly will get) their share.
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