Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Downvoting

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–57 of 57 posts

Re: Ask HN: Downvoting

#51

Post by mentat »

steventruong wrote: post #34
ColinWright wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one way to think about it, based purely on what you've said. I didn't see your comment, so I don't know for sure: Did you say anything unobvious? You quoted from the site that they declared it not to be a production release, and you said "OK - not for me." (I paraphrase) We can easily deduce that, as it's not a production release, then not everyone will want it. Fine. What did your comment really add? It was a…

I can see what you mean and I do understand that vantage point of view. However, I think downvoting something just because it doesn't necessarily add obvious value (which is relative) to the conversation is a mistake. Maybe it's just me but I would think it would make people more hesitant to speak freely just because others may perceive no value from it and getting downvoted as a result. It's very different than down…

As the grandparent says, this is a purposeful decision in this community. There's a goal of encouraging useful conversation, not just conversation. I do a lot less posting than I might otherwise and I make sure my comments have content before posting them. This hesitation helps ensure that I'm providing value, not just rambling opinion. Having an online community built around presenting value really is a feature, not a bug.

Re: Ask HN: Downvoting

#52

Post by mentat »

steventruong wrote: post #36
codabrink wrote: post #33

People on HN are way too keen to downvoting. Down votes should be used to filter out bad/thoughtless comments, not viewpoints that don't necessarily agree with yours. I've seen a lot of valuable input grayed out on this site.

I agree except bad/thoughtless can be subjective.

What's wrong with people making subjective judgments about the work of others in a community they share? You have to have a certain level of karma to down vote, which means (theoretically) you have to have done things that created sufficient value for at least some people and hopefully learned about what the existing group values.

Re: Ask HN: Downvoting

#53

Post by Mz »

I ask because following that incident I will no longer be presenting dissenting views here, irrespective of perceived value.

Presenting a dissenting opinion is an art form. It takes practice. I do a lot of it. I never really fit in anywhere I go. An awful lot of my views do not fit into whatever the 'typical' assumptions are on a topic and this means that no matter what I say, both sides often wind up kicking the crap out of me.

Some tips, should you decide you would like to try again:

Don't be argumentative about it. Present your views as a standing-on-your-own-two-feet position, not a shooting-down-the-opposition thing.

Show some respect -- agree to disagree, make no attempt to "win people over", much less "win".

Stick to the issues. When you dissent, inevitably there will be enormous social pressure swirling around your lack of going along to get along. Anyone who speaks to you will likely try to put all kinds of crap on you about what they think you are saying. Politely clarify, as many times as it takes.

Judge the timing and context carefully. There is a time and place to offer an alternate point of view. There are other times and places where it's so not worth it.

Word your dissent very carefully. If your goal is to get people to really think and not just punch buttons, like it or not, the burden is on the minority voice to make an effort to communicate effectively. If you are going along with the majority opinion, you can express yourself sloppily and people won't care. But when stating a minority opinion, you must be extra careful to work at communicating effectively and intentionally avoid punching people's buttons so as to have some hope of actually being heard.

Re: Ask HN: Downvoting

#54

Post by steventruong »

mentat wrote: post #52
steventruong wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree except bad/thoughtless can be subjective.

What's wrong with people making subjective judgments about the work of others in a community they share? You have to have a certain level of karma to down vote, which means (theoretically) you have to have done things that created sufficient value for at least some people and hopefully learned about what the existing group values.

Getting total karma count isn't difficult. People whose been around long enough will eventually accummulate the number needed if they interact in any way at all

Re: Ask HN: Downvoting

#55

Post by nsomaru »

Perhaps it's also about _how_ you present a view. Using words such as "perhaps" and "consider" allow people to more easily receive the thought that you are attempting to convey.

Re: Ask HN: Downvoting

#56

Post by ryall »

jonafato wrote: post #37
peterhi wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only problem here is that you are assuming only one point of view is correct. So if I down vote you because I believe what you are saying is wrong but a lot of supporters of your view up vote then I will be punished for having a discenting (or at least less popular) view. Is this what you had in mind?

Therein lies the the problem though. It seems to be the general consensus that people should down vote only for unhelpful / irrelevant / factually incorrect comments, however voting is used to show agreement / disagreement. Before voting, I usually ask myself why I'm doing this. If it's to promote an opinion, I leave it alone.

Exactly. Down-voting is not to show disagreement, it's to cull comments that don't contribute to the discussion. What I'm proposing would hopefully make people question their motives before down-voting.

Re: Ask HN: Downvoting

#57

Post by ColinWright »

maresca wrote: post #42
ColinWright wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In Comments ... Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you.

Irony is dead.

Did you not perceive the irony in my comment? I guess it was more post-ironic or meta-irony - bit tricky to detect.
Post reply on HN