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Advice From An Old Programmer

learnpythonthehardway.org

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#101

Post by collypops »

zedshaw wrote: post #94
rdouble wrote: post #7

People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect. People who can code in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, and mathematics are respected and can do amazing things to advance those disciplines. This is a nice sentiment but as someone who has been a programmer for biology and medical research, it's not true. It's just like any other mediocre progra…

Hmm, you really got a problem with this don't you? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/i1j67/advice_fr... There you are on reddit, saying the same thing, and ignoring the fact that you're confounding your experience as a Biology postdoc with you use of code. Hopefully, as a scientist you know what confounding is. :-) P.S. I'm the author. EDIT: point at the exact comment.

It was really interesting for me to look at all of the different directions me and my fellow students took after completing our CS degrees. I always joke that I 'sold out' with my programming skills for going to work at a news/media company to build their websites, whereas a couple of the guys a I know are doing a much more honourable thing by working in Biology and Space Tech.

I think it's unquestionable that they are the ones who are deserving of more respect, but I still think that it's not just our jobs that define how well we've used our programming skills. We're always hacking away on our own little projects, and hopefully carving our own paths, creating useful software along the way (something you excel in, Zed). I think that having the drive to do this commands more respect than any specific career choice.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#102

Post by stayjin »

gaius wrote: post #56
programminggeek wrote: post #4

You know, half the reason Zed Shaw is so well known is not just that he is a prolific coder, but that he is quite an excellent writer as well. Well done Zed. I always appreciate what you write.

Well, other than that he's completely mistaken about the career advice he offers here. I'd be very curious to know if he's ever been the highly-respected programmer in a science lab, or personally knows anyone who is. My science friends tell me the job doesn't exist; any code that needs writing, a grad student will do it sufficiently well (on top of their lab work) for no more money.

What I believe he means is that since code is the tool, to code within the programming industry is laboring on the tools themselves, but to code to solve the specific problems of another domain is applying the tools.

Ability to code in another domain gives you leverage for work done IN that domain. The caveat is that knowing ONLY how to code without working knowledge of the domain itself will not get you very far.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#103

Post by hugh3 »

roadnottaken wrote: post #77
bh42222 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're social scientists/linguists undergrads first, programmers second, but programming plays a vital role in their academic career. This is only because of the sad state of education where programming is this incredibly rare black magic that less than 1% of the people in your field know. (Mathematicians and Physicists obviously excluded.) But this is changing, it has not been the case in physics since for ever, an…

when everybody is trained with at least a basic ability to program, then your super advantage is gone Yes, but like Math, not everybody can be trained in it. People either get math or they don't. Everybody has to take calculus to become a scientist or a doctor but most people never really get it and forget it shortly after taking the classes. I imagine the same will happen with programming: there will be a few requir…

I think you're overestimating the difficulty of programming.

Let's face it, there's a hell of a lot of moderately bright twelve-year-olds who know how to program adequately well.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#104

Post by dolvlo »

orillian wrote: post #31
dolvlo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. People who code in the world of technology companies get respect, and quite a lot of it. Getting paid for your work is a form of respect.

Getting paid is only a form of acknowledgment that you worked, but it in no way denotes respect. It simply says " to the best of our knowledge s/he did work for the duration of this pay period. I agree that some people do get respect in this industry, but too many of us are simply cogs in a wheel.

What's so bad about being a cog in a wheel, if you're enjoying your life?

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#105

Post by jerryr »

As someone who's been trying to hire good software engineering professionals for some time now, I'm going to tentatively agree with, "people who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen"; however, I'm going to posit that, in the world of technology companies, good software engineers who are passionate, diligent, and bent on improving themselves and their field are rare. So, please do not despair because you've read the Old Programmer's advice and you're not fluent in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, or mathematics. I can say that even as a generalist, you can help advance the field of software engineering, and I represent one technology company that will value you for that.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#106

Post by SandB0x »

GHFigs wrote: post #82
mattdeboard wrote: post #3

>Finally, I will say that learning to create software changes you and makes you different. This is so very true in my experience. The way I think has fundamentally changed since programming became the primary professional/pastime activity in my life about two years ago. I'm 32, and everything from my politics to my decisions about where to live has been effected. (Whether I'm using the proper choice between 'effect'/…

Seymore Papert, in Mindstorms : "By deliberately learning to imitate mechanical thinking, the learner becomes able to articulate what mechanical thinking is and what it is not. The exercise can lead to greater confidence about the ability to choose a cognitive style that suits the problem. Analysis of "mechanical thinking" and how it is different from other kinds and practice with problem analysis can result in a new…

Superb, that's going straight into my text file of wise words.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#107

Post by zedshaw »

iloveyouocean wrote: post #81
simonsarris wrote: post #11

> Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art form that allows you to create interactive art. What about oral storytelling? Or just (re)telling jokes? Improv and related performing arts? Stage magicians? Mimes? Community murals?

I think his statement is incredibly short-sighted. Has he never been to an art museum with interactive sculpture, etc? Perhaps he could hedge on the 'degree' of interactivity offered, but with such an emphatic 'only', I think its more likely that he is simply wrong.

Ah, pedantry, the pinnacle of all evaluations of a single statement one could make. Next you should criticize how the book doesn't cover decorator generators that use @wrap or how it doesn't cover discrete mathematics. That'll be very effective.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#108

Post by [deleted] »

zedshaw wrote: post #94
rdouble wrote: post #7

People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect. People who can code in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, and mathematics are respected and can do amazing things to advance those disciplines. This is a nice sentiment but as someone who has been a programmer for biology and medical research, it's not true. It's just like any other mediocre progra…

Hmm, you really got a problem with this don't you? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/i1j67/advice_fr... There you are on reddit, saying the same thing, and ignoring the fact that you're confounding your experience as a Biology postdoc with you use of code. Hopefully, as a scientist you know what confounding is. :-) P.S. I'm the author. EDIT: point at the exact comment.

[deleted]

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#109

Post by zedshaw »

zwieback wrote: post #9

Some good points buried among juvenile posturing, I guess the "old" part must be irony. Would you take programming language advice from someone who has learned the language in "a day or a week"? I realize the point is the language doesn't really matter but statements like that and the general tenor of the post don't inspire me.

1. It's not a "post", it's a single chapter in a whole book http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ which I'm guessing you won't read because you clearly can't read.

2. I am old compared to a lot of programmers, but yes it was kind of a joke. There's several exercises where people know my age.

3. It's a good thing you're not my target audience. It's a lot harder for me to write in 2nd person passive voice like you're used to reading in all those academic papers you devour.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#110

Post by zedshaw »

Peaker wrote: post #33

If he thinks he can learn any programming language in a week, he's still ignorant about programming languages. I challenge his knowledge of/about Haskell, Agda, etc. Also, I am sure there are plenty of "old programmers" who are still excited about programming languages, and think they matter.

I've gone through http://learnyouahaskell.com/ and it wasn't too hard. About the only difficulty is the pointless and contradictory jargon like "point free" or the hand-waving about Monads and how they violate their purely functional execution model. Never heard of Agda, but then I sort of don't care.

Obviously, there are old programmers who are into programming languages, but they usually sit around writing crappy programming languages that nobody can use because they never ask anyone if their programming languages are usable. You know, kind of like Haskell.

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