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Advice From An Old Programmer

learnpythonthehardway.org

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#81

Post by iloveyouocean »

simonsarris wrote: post #11

> Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art form that allows you to create interactive art. What about oral storytelling? Or just (re)telling jokes? Improv and related performing arts? Stage magicians? Mimes? Community murals?

I think his statement is incredibly short-sighted. Has he never been to an art museum with interactive sculpture, etc? Perhaps he could hedge on the 'degree' of interactivity offered, but with such an emphatic 'only', I think its more likely that he is simply wrong.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#82

Post by GHFigs »

mattdeboard wrote: post #3

>Finally, I will say that learning to create software changes you and makes you different. This is so very true in my experience. The way I think has fundamentally changed since programming became the primary professional/pastime activity in my life about two years ago. I'm 32, and everything from my politics to my decisions about where to live has been effected. (Whether I'm using the proper choice between 'effect'/…

Seymore Papert, in Mindstorms:

"By deliberately learning to imitate mechanical thinking, the learner becomes able to articulate what mechanical thinking is and what it is not. The exercise can lead to greater confidence about the ability to choose a cognitive style that suits the problem. Analysis of "mechanical thinking" and how it is different from other kinds and practice with problem analysis can result in a new degree of intellectual sophistication. By providing a very concrete down-to-earth model of a particular style of thinking, work with the computer can make it easier to understand that there is such a thing as a "style of thinking". And giving children the opportunity to choose one style or another provides an opportunity to develop the skill necessary to choose between styles. Thus instead of inducing mechanical thinking, contact with computers could turn out to be the best conceivable antidote to it. And for me what is the most important in this is that through these experiences these children would be serving their apprenticeships as epistemologists, that is to say learning to think articulately about thinking."

http://www.amazon.com/Mindstorms-Children-Computers-Powerful...

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#83

Post by StavrosK »

shin_lao wrote: post #36

Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art Programming isn't an art. Programming is a craft. The difference is that you can use a craft to make art, but crafting isn't always artistic. Let's not get over our heads and consider ourselves artists because we can code...

I don't disagree with you, but painting, sculpting, playing an instrument, writing, etc, all crafts, by that definition.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#84

Post by StavrosK »

keiferski wrote: post #55
shin_lao wrote: post #36

Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art Programming isn't an art. Programming is a craft. The difference is that you can use a craft to make art, but crafting isn't always artistic. Let's not get over our heads and consider ourselves artists because we can code...

The word art , in the past, was used in the same way that we, today, use craft . So, it's not quite that simple. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art But let's avoid an argument on the semantics of aesthetics and just leave it at that.

And it still is (X is practising his art).

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#85

Post by mattdeboard »

Timothee wrote: post #70
mattdeboard wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lost my job in PR in February. Instead of doing the knee getting another job immediately as my family urged me to do -- I am a single father after all -- I realized I'd make more money in the long term by living on the ~$5k I had saved up and free fall until school began again in the fall, at which point I'd have GI Bill + student loan money, and we could live off ramen. During the free fall period I focused like a…

Thanks for sharing that. I've been thinking on and off about moving programming from a hobby to full-time job and it's nice to see someone who took the plunge. I'm curious to know if it was difficult to find an internship. Typically, companies are looking for people out of college and I would expect them to dismiss older candidates pretty fast unless you have a strong cover letter. Good luck with the new endeavor!

I dunno about the age thing. I'm middle aged in programming years, and had no issues landing a job at the only Python/Django biz that I know of in central Indiana. I started attending local python & other meetups, and connections flowed naturally from there. That's how I got this. I poured a lot of time and energy into this pursuit, and it paid off.

It has been the purest, most gratifying & deeply rewarding transformation of my life, ahead even of 10 years of service as a Marine. Why? Because every second and calorie I poured into self-education about programming was out of pure passion, not because I was contractually obligated or faced court martial otherwise.

Programming is the most perfect creative outlet for me, and very day im absolutely giddy about going to work and am a little disappointed when it's quitting time. Achievement unlocked. If you want to do it then do it.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#86

Post by 6ren »

gaius wrote: post #56
programminggeek wrote: post #4

You know, half the reason Zed Shaw is so well known is not just that he is a prolific coder, but that he is quite an excellent writer as well. Well done Zed. I always appreciate what you write.

Well, other than that he's completely mistaken about the career advice he offers here. I'd be very curious to know if he's ever been the highly-respected programmer in a science lab, or personally knows anyone who is. My science friends tell me the job doesn't exist; any code that needs writing, a grad student will do it sufficiently well (on top of their lab work) for no more money.

A kinder interpretation is that he meant: be an expert in that field who can also code.

Which is probably pretty true already, much as everyone can use a word processor or spreadsheet. Programming to get a job done is not that hard, especially with languages like python. Over time, the tools will get even easier.

Being a tool-maker seems to have some mileage left - but that will also be made easier over time.

EDIT it's hard to predict what will happen, but for several decades, programmers earned above average wages. Cool... but weird. I saw a great explanation, that during that time, not everyone who wanted a computer had one, and each transition (mainframe/mini/workstation/PC) increased the market size, and therefore the demand for software. Higher demand --> higher wages. But according to this explanation, PCs maxed out their market around the year 2000. While this mightn't be strictly true, as the third world is unconquered, and people buy second and third devices (e.g. smart phones), the rate of increase has slowed.

Those above average wages will never return. There will just be average wages. But if you like programming, that's OK.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#87

Post by mattdeboard »

GHFigs wrote: post #82
mattdeboard wrote: post #3

>Finally, I will say that learning to create software changes you and makes you different. This is so very true in my experience. The way I think has fundamentally changed since programming became the primary professional/pastime activity in my life about two years ago. I'm 32, and everything from my politics to my decisions about where to live has been effected. (Whether I'm using the proper choice between 'effect'/…

Seymore Papert, in Mindstorms : "By deliberately learning to imitate mechanical thinking, the learner becomes able to articulate what mechanical thinking is and what it is not. The exercise can lead to greater confidence about the ability to choose a cognitive style that suits the problem. Analysis of "mechanical thinking" and how it is different from other kinds and practice with problem analysis can result in a new…

Astounding; this quote nails my experience. Learning to program de-programmed the mechanical, "proceed until error" non-thinking conditioning that plagued my entire adult life.
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