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China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

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Re: China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

#151

Post by spacehunt »

Stevvo wrote: post #34
hntroll666 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do I mean by invade? Simply ask anyone in Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, or Taiwan, if they want mainland Chinese there, or if they want to be governed by the CCP. I accept that territory is won or lost, and the Tibetans and Uyghurs lost their territory, but they were definitely invaded and conquered.

I have asked many people in those regions excluding Xinjiang, and the answers are never as black and white as the narratives you read online. In Tibet, people were not too happy about the military presence on the streets, the cultural assimilation or the mao statue in the shadow of Potala palace, but on balance are were happy to be part of China due to the economic development. People felt they would be unemployed wi…

> In Hong Kong, the most common thing I heard was vaguely racist grumblings about mainlanders. People were unhappy with mainlanders behaving in an "uncivil" manner. There was a majority acknowledgement of China's sovereignty over Hong Kong, and a strong "Chinese" identity.

Really interested to know when did you talk to the people in Hong Kong. What you described might have been the views of some Hong Kong people 10 years ago, but it's definitely not the mainstream view nowadays.

Re: China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

#153

Post by Daho0n »

anvandare wrote: post #112
ekianjo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taiwan would be a straight-up war That will be shortest war ever. If China does an embargo on Taiwan and encircles it, there's nothing that Taiwan could do in the long run. They will be forced to negotiate. And you can bet the US has no intention to intervene.

>And you can bet the US has no intention to intervene. The most absolutely do. They might not want to, but they have no choice. Taiwan is a shackle in a long chain: From South Korea, across the Korean strait, to Japan. From Japan, along the Ryukyu islands to Taiwan. From Taiwan, across the Luzon strait, to the Philippines. From there to Malaysia (and Singapore) and Indonesia. Almost nowhere along this 4000 mile chain…

Not a chance. The US would instantly have at least one carrier sunk minutes after declaring and that alone could break morale. It's like saying the US would go to war with Russia over Ukraine. Over Taiwan war is either not going to happen or it will be nuclear war. Whichs sounds most likely? The US will sanction and draw lots of red lines in the sand and then tug its tail between its legs.

Re: China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

#154

Post by spacehunt »

xwolfi wrote: post #4

I m in HK and I don't know what to think. Between protestors destroying the streets like monkeys and the country punishing everyone using this as an excuse, we're well surrounded :D Hong Kong shouldn't be independent but is China the right country for us, is how I jokingly troll both extremes. End of the day nobody cares, we're still discussing who elect the mayor of the city and people are talking like we're losing…

> I d be more interested to move on and start discussing how we elect the president of our country now that we all agree we should be patriotic ;)

I take this as evidence that you are planning to overthrow the current government? You do realise posting this is an offense under the National Security Law?

Re: China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

#155

Post by anvandare »

Daho0n wrote: post #153
anvandare wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you can bet the US has no intention to intervene. The most absolutely do. They might not want to, but they have no choice. Taiwan is a shackle in a long chain: From South Korea, across the Korean strait, to Japan. From Japan, along the Ryukyu islands to Taiwan. From Taiwan, across the Luzon strait, to the Philippines. From there to Malaysia (and Singapore) and Indonesia. Almost nowhere along this 4000 mile chain…

Not a chance. The US would instantly have at least one carrier sunk minutes after declaring and that alone could break morale. It's like saying the US would go to war with Russia over Ukraine. Over Taiwan war is either not going to happen or it will be nuclear war. Whichs sounds most likely? The US will sanction and draw lots of red lines in the sand and then tug its tail between its legs.

>The US would instantly have at least one carrier sunk minutes after declaring and that alone could break morale.

Isn't that the exact reasoning which led to the attack on Pearl Harbor? "One quick strike and they'll be out of the war..."

>The US will sanction and draw lots of red lines in the sand and then tug its tail between its legs.

And that's the kind of reasoning that led to Ukraine being invaded by Russia. The inevitable result of China being allowed to take Taiwan is China sailing their own carrier fleets along the West Coast a decade or two later. Absolutely unacceptable. Great Powers will always use force when faced with an existential threat.

The thing that usually leads to a war is thinking the other side lacks the willingness to go to war.

Re: China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

#156

Post by [deleted] »

nathanyukai wrote: post #36
3np wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "undoubtedly belong to China" is the narrative from the CCP and not shared by many, especially peoples living in and native to those regions.

"especially peoples living in and native to those regions." lol, check American history please.

[deleted]

Re: China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

#157

Post by Stevvo »

spacehunt wrote: post #151
Stevvo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have asked many people in those regions excluding Xinjiang, and the answers are never as black and white as the narratives you read online. In Tibet, people were not too happy about the military presence on the streets, the cultural assimilation or the mao statue in the shadow of Potala palace, but on balance are were happy to be part of China due to the economic development. People felt they would be unemployed wi…

> In Hong Kong, the most common thing I heard was vaguely racist grumblings about mainlanders. People were unhappy with mainlanders behaving in an "uncivil" manner. There was a majority acknowledgement of China's sovereignty over Hong Kong, and a strong "Chinese" identity. Really interested to know when did you talk to the people in Hong Kong. What you described might have been the views of some Hong Kong people 10 y…

Yea, it was a while ago. 2012 to 2015 I visited many times.

Re: China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

#158

Post by tarboreus »

dschuler wrote: post #96
alau1218 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The liberal open Hong Kong we used to know has died in 2020, the year they passed the national security law. Elites and professionals in Hong Kong are thinking where to move their families to and those chose to stay have to accept they are now no difference than an ordinary mainland Chinese citizen. CCP did not and will not keep any of their promises. All the Sino-UK agreement and the promise of 'One country Two syst…

It really died in 2019 when the protesters started setting fire to other Hong Kongers that disagreed with them by throwing Molotov cocktails at them, or just beating a guy in head with a large steel pipe for moving a brick out of the street. The CCP taking over now vs. after 2046 was the only predictable outcome here, but the freedom to speak your mind and disagree without threat of physical harm was lost before. EDI…

What's to say? The protests were against China's violation of the two systems agreement. There has been violence, detention, and suppression from China at every turn. Most of the protests have been nonviolent.

I think with major protest movements, the question becomes, is the cause worth the unrest? Unrest is a negative in itself, and always results in, at mnimum, damage to property and disruption of life and also more often than not injury and death. Some causes do justify some violence, but not every good cause justifies the unrest it produces. I do feel like China's illiberal and repressive attitude, including detentions, shutting down almost all forms of political speech, and, yes, violence do justify the (really, I think) relatively restrained HK protest movement.

If you're reading this in China, or are native Chinese, I ask you...do you feel there would be consequences for you if you spoke up in defense of the protests? Put aside whether you think the protests are a good idea or not. If you defended them publicly, what would happen? Whether or not you support the protests, I think you should consider that question, and decide if you like the answer.

And, yes, the US isn't all unicorns and rainbows. We may be moving in an illiberal direction ourselves. But we're not quite there yet, and there are still people here who can speak up, and even make a career, criticizing the, I'll just say it, evil decisions of our government.

Re: China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

#159

Post by dang »

All: China-geopolitics threads on HN jumped the shark years ago; now they're jumping the ocean the shark is in. This is damaging HN, which is for curious conversation, not flamewar.

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Re: China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law

#160

Post by Chris2048 »

choonway wrote: post #98
Chris2048 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was part of Qing, and Qing fell, why should Chinese Republican govt and/or PRC have any say in the matter?

ROC took over the assets and liabilities of the qing, just like russia did with the soviet union

What liabilities did the Russian oligarchs take on?
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