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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#211

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

After being raised in a non-Fundamentalist denomination I'd say the progressive ones are more insidious and no less harmful. Their foundations are all the same text, no matter how literal or figurative they interpret it. IME they usually also teach the same bad ways of thinking: emotion over logic, testimony over hard evidence, authority beyond your understanding, etc.

I suspect you're setting up a false dichotomy. There are more choices on theology than ones that require you to check your brain in at the door, such as 1. fundamentalism and 2. feel-good pop psychology.

I am not taught emotion over logic. In fact, the Wesleyan Quadrilateral (a framework derived from but not described by him) has you evaluate beliefs with reason being a co-equal base. In confirmation and later in-depth adult classes, we were instructed to wrestle with the scripture. For example, we dug into the context of the times to understand better why certain things would have been said. We acknowledged selected verses made no sense. We agreed some parts we have no choice but to disregard. We frankly don't take Revelations that seriously because it's mostly batshit crazy. :-)

I am not taught testimony over evidence. My church fully embraces evolution. We see Genesis for the story and the poetry.

Authority beyond understanding: that gets back into the theological allegiance insisted on by the fundamentalists mainly.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#212

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

You don’t care about it’s positive influence on other people? I understand feeling like you are enlightened and psychologically adjusted such that you don’t need anything beyond science and your own intellect, but surely you see the positive effects it has on other people, and cultures? Do you really think a world without black churches is a better world?

If people need to fear a God or Hell to be a good person, there is value in the stability that generates. Plenty of people out there who do believe and still do terrible things to others.

If someone has a positive experience at church and it adds value to your life, I’m not judging nor do I have anything bad to say about the value it provides.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#213

Speaking as a person of faith, religion has been largely obsoleted by social media and political tribalism. Most people get their moral compass from Instagram or Twitter or whatever. Celebrities, op-end writers, talk show hosts, and corporations have become the bishops of the new American moral universe.

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#214

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

What is a "good person?" And do you really think people who believe in God are just listening to "fairy tails (sic)" so they can be face the reality of death? Is that really the best portrayal of Christians you can come up with?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#215
post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

Growing up in the 80's (UK) as a Roman Catholic, I remember the services being full on Sunday mornings. Not been since I left home at 18, because frankly I stopped believing in God the same time I stopped believing in Father Christmas (7?). The only reason I went was to make my parents happy. Now I'm in my 40's I do wonder if the lack of religion in society is leading us to a bad place. We know from numerous studies…

where is the pull for good old family values?

That's a term that everyone interprets their own way, without even realising that they have different values to the person standing next to them; different people's "family values" can conflict in significant and very incompatible ways.

So what are "good old family values"? If your young, unmarried daughter falls pregnant, should you cast her out or should you double-down on helping her? Both of those are good old family values.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#216

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

> you don’t need fairy tails to be a good person and to come to terms with death

I don't think this is true in general. I have a pet theory that much of the conspiracy theory following we are seeing is actually a weakening of church. People need spirituality - it doesn't matter where that spirituality comes from (except for local social pressures - but those aren't relevant to this point). If they're not getting spirituality from church, it has to come from somewhere. So people latch on to conspiracy theories because it provides higher purpose in their lives.

If you are teaching your children to be good and to not fear death, you need some philosophical backbone with which to unify these ideas. You may well be able to provide that, but not everyone is. Religion serves as a common philosophical substrate for discussions that people don't know how to have. It is imperfect, and definitely not as good as thoughtful parenting in my opinion, but it fills some of the gaps.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#217
I see religion as being a useful counterbalance to government power. I'm a little concerned how cultish politics is getting in the US. Racism is the new original sin. You can just call anyone racist to publicly condemn them as unforgivable sinners. I was very concerned about Churches being burned down in last year's Riots, the cult of personality around Trump, and the new woke culture that sees individuals as only members of some oppressed/oppressive group.

Transhumanism which I feel started with the abuse of steroids, is already upon us, and soon tech will give us the power to change and manipulate human DNA. Turns out many people don't like their bodies and would like to change them on mass. Will the changes have unforeseen consequences? Seems to me like things could go horribly wrong. The ultimate irony would be that we would end up looking like the depicted deformed and grotesque biblical demons. The obesity pandemic is already pushing many people that way. And thats probably a consequence of injesting too much plastic, and damaging hormone levels and pure gluttony.

I think at its best, Religion abstracts some useful concepts like humility, guilt, responsibility, and so on, into stories and parables and makes the insignificant individual feel like their life is important and part of a grander story. It adds the practice of rituals, and adds more exposure to art, music and community and self reflection, and reduces death anxiety. And it marks significant life milestones with community celebrations.

Is it better to be a realist, or is it better to add a layer of mental abstraction around reality. And feel like you are part of a (Movie) script and act accordingly.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#218
post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

Growing up in the 80's (UK) as a Roman Catholic, I remember the services being full on Sunday mornings. Not been since I left home at 18, because frankly I stopped believing in God the same time I stopped believing in Father Christmas (7?). The only reason I went was to make my parents happy. Now I'm in my 40's I do wonder if the lack of religion in society is leading us to a bad place. We know from numerous studies…

There is no evidence that heterosexual parents are better for children than non-het parents. An important factor is that their parents have a stable relationship.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01494929.2015.10...

https://journals.lww.com/jrnldbp/Abstract/2016/04000/Same_Se...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no issues with Christianity from a philosophical standpoint. It explains things which our beyond our natural/physical world. Those things impact how we live in this world. I'm curious what you mean in your statement, please unpack your claim.

The parent is referring to the (actually, legitimately, really bad) philosophy that you can find in the most puffed-up theology books. It comes from the same process of domain envy that makes some philosophers put the worst math ever in their papers, except it started several hundred years earlier. To cut one slice through it, I can point you to a page of 100% fallacious arguments[0] that only survived as long as the…

The very page you link lists a logically sound ontological argument[1]. It appears to me that you're judging the argument fallacious because you don't like the conclusion.

[1]https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/#Go...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#220
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at the popularity of "prosperity gospel" with poor and middle class individuals. This is as a response to the inequality and social immobility brought about since the mid 70s. I'll leave out explicit mention of the "C word," because I'll get downvotes for it, but the sociological analysis is fascinating on its own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology#Socioecono...

Whats the alternative for those less fortunate? I mentored kids for much of my life and you can bet I told them they could be anything they want if they set their mind to it. What should I preach? That they're victims and screwed because of accident of geography/genetics? Is that a useful framework for life? You can say that you teach them the system is unfair will help them break it. But that amounts to political in…

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