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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#201

Post by codeulike »

nly wrote: post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

The difference in politics is interesting too - in the USA politicians have to be shown to be religious - people discuss the possibility that Bernie Sanders' might be atheist like its a potential major scandal. In the UK its the exact opposite, we don't want our leaders to be religious. Its ok for them to go to a big church service or lay a wreath or something but if they start talking about their 'faith' (as Tony Blair did somewhat) we get weirded out.

Jeremy Corbyn's atheism is an interesting example - the right wing press found all sorts of ways to vilify or criticise him, but his atheism never came up as a criticism - because atheism in the UK is a complete non issue. No-one cares. Compare with Bernie Sanders.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#202

Post by splithalf »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #145

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

You don’t care about it’s positive influence on other people? I understand feeling like you are enlightened and psychologically adjusted such that you don’t need anything beyond science and your own intellect, but surely you see the positive effects it has on other people, and cultures? Do you really think a world without black churches is a better world?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#203

Post by mustafa_pasi »

wussboy wrote: post #159
nly wrote: post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

I think part of the problem is that there is no clear tradition of “cultural Christian” like there is for “atheist Jew”. I don’t believe in God. I love the high church and choral traditions. I attend a church where the minister feels the same. Am I a Christian? No. And yes.

"Cultural Christian" is just what western culture is. "atheist Jews" can exist only because they exist in the cultural Christian west.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#204

Post by Applejinx »

BenoitEssiambre wrote: post #157

Whether this is good or bad depends on what the substitute is. Whatever it is, imo, intellectuals should be more involved in communities that cater to simpler folks. Otherwise, these often get co-opted by nefarious forces. See Qanon, Trumpism etc. Hopefully this is not people jumping to these.

But that IS intellectuals getting involved. QAnon is quite cleverly constructed. Just because it uses mechanisms similar to Nigerian email scams doesn't mean it's not intelligently constructed and administered. There are already intellectuals involved, they're just not pursuing disinterested goals.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#205

Post by whatshisface »

sarabad2021 wrote: post #122
psychometry wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most "solid" theology is just shaky philosophy, though.

I see no issues with Christianity from a philosophical standpoint. It explains things which our beyond our natural/physical world. Those things impact how we live in this world. I'm curious what you mean in your statement, please unpack your claim.

The parent is referring to the (actually, legitimately, really bad) philosophy that you can find in the most puffed-up theology books. It comes from the same process of domain envy that makes some philosophers put the worst math ever in their papers, except it started several hundred years earlier. To cut one slice through it, I can point you to a page of 100% fallacious arguments[0] that only survived as long as they did because they had a popular conclusion.

[0] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#206

Post by pmiller2 »

bko wrote: post #178
pmiller2 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at the popularity of "prosperity gospel" with poor and middle class individuals. This is as a response to the inequality and social immobility brought about since the mid 70s. I'll leave out explicit mention of the "C word," because I'll get downvotes for it, but the sociological analysis is fascinating on its own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology#Socioecono...

Whats the alternative for those less fortunate? I mentored kids for much of my life and you can bet I told them they could be anything they want if they set their mind to it. What should I preach? That they're victims and screwed because of accident of geography/genetics? Is that a useful framework for life? You can say that you teach them the system is unfair will help them break it. But that amounts to political in…

There is no separating economics from politics, really. If God can't deliver, people have to, and that's inherently a political position.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#207

Post by vlunkr »

whalesalad wrote: post #28

I had a unique experience growing up in a religious family (that is very tolerant and respectful of all world religions) while simultaneously being immersed in Scientology via a private school experience. The thing that underscores all of my experiences has been hypocrisy. So many people just want to belong to a group, or were raised in it and know nothing better. They don’t practice what they preach. I can’t help bu…

I think hypocrisy is inevitable for a couple of reasons.

1) In theory, people go to church because they want to improve, not because they are already perfect. It's not hypocritical to make mistakes.

2) Hypocrisy is everywhere. No one really does scrum, no one really does TDD, no motivational speaker is happy all the time, and no christian is without sin. This shouldn't be surprising.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#208

Post by cableshaft »

whiddershins wrote: post #89

In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically…

I grew up Protestant but have considered myself Agnostic for a while.

However, lately I've been having the urge to dig into spirituality more, as I'm starting to suspect there can be something there, it's just that, except for a single sermon I sat in about people destroying natural rock formations that have been around for millions of years on a whim (yeah the pastor actually said millions of years), I haven't found anything that seemed worth reflecting on in church services I've attended in a very long time.

The book you posted seems interesting, I'll give that a read. I also found Tolstoy's 'A Confession' very interesting back in the day. Do you have other resources you would recommend I check out?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#209

Post by dagw »

CedarMills wrote: post #93

As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the sa…

I grew up attending church, and on the whole have nothing but good things to say about the whole experience. It gave me both spiritual and moral support when I needed it the most and some of the best people I have ever known, I got to know through church. In fact in ways I mourn the loss of both my faith and my 'church'.

However once I realized that, on a very fundamental level, the core of what they where claiming as true wasn't in fact true, I felt I had no choice to walk away.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#210

Post by snicker7 »

Speaking as a person of faith, religion has been largely obsoleted by social media and political tribalism. Most people get their moral compass from Instagram or Twitter or whatever. Celebrities, op-end writers, talk show hosts, and corporations have become the bishops of the new American moral universe.
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