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John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

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Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#331

Post by orra »

ben_w wrote: post #267
orra wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That policy has since been updated to allow singular they, despite Stallman's objection to singular they. But now the footnote of the policy would allow you to call a trans woman "they" and never "her". That's not something transphobes (or anybody else) would ever do to a cis woman.

FWIW, I tried to get in the habit of using singular-“they” for everyone , even where I know their gender and they are cis, to reduce any subconscious gender bias. This has had two effects: learning that some trans people really don’t like that, and everyone assuming my partner is a dude. (He is, but I’m bi and therefore this is mere coincidence).

Interesting.

I've taken to calling my partner "partner", to be gender neutral. But in the short term, people probably incorrectly infer I use the term because I am gay. Or, if they're presumptive but less presumptive, gay or bi.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#332

Post by psychiatrist24 »

bartread wrote: post #281
psychiatrist24 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question, why is it inappropriate? It is against the "Bro Code" from "How I met your mother", but other than that? Sure, we are trained to feel uneasy about it, but if you really think about it, why exactly? Because you consider 50 year old men disgusting? Shouldn't you leave that to the women to decide? Many people also feel a bit disgusted about gay sex, yet they are supposed to tolerate and even celebrate…

I consider it inappropriate because whenever I've seen it happen the female on the receiving end of the older man's attention is at best extremely uncomfortable about it. I've seen it happen first hand in an organisation I was a member of on multiple occasions. Men were asked to leave over it. Left unaddressed it becomes a barrier to female involvement. Does that mean relationships with significant age gaps are wrong…

So maybe the girls are ageist and should be trained out of it, for our modern tolerant society? France has a president with a wife who is 25 years older than him, and that is universally applauded.

I can relate to the feeling, but on the other hand, I don't think it is fair to demand unattractive men should remove themselves from the dating pool. Of course society cares more for young women than old men, but nobody would admit that officially.

I have personally also seen young women throw themselves at old men with power, btw.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#333

Post by pseudalopex »

Roark66 wrote: post #321
pseudalopex wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman's skill was as a visionary. His role wasn't limited to that unfortunately. Multiple FSF employees say they unionized because of Stallman's management.[1][2] And people have pointed out several examples of him overriding GNU project maintainers. Stallman said several times adults having sex with children was fine if the children consented.[3][4][5] He changed his mind in 2018 or 2019 apparently.[4][6] [1] htt…

Ok, I wasn't aware of this. I agree his point of view was narrow minded. I can't defend it. He did change it as he says (in 6th link) based on conversations with someone who explained to him the harm caused. People learn all their life. I'm glad he did. Should having that view before and understanding own error disqualify him from FSF? I don't know. At least we're talking about it based on fact not hearsay.

Bradley Kuhn said most of what I could say about Stallman better.[1] The bottom line is Stallman made himself a less effective Free Software advocate by spouting controversial opinions about things he had no expertise in. Not just adults having sex with children.

It took many years to change Stallman's opinion on this 1 thing. He still didn't apologize for calling people prejudiced and narrow minded because they disagreed with him. Or mocking parents who he realized were right. And some people take issue with him not mentioning it until after he came under pressure to resign.

[1] http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#334

Post by rich_sasha »

pseudalopex wrote: post #320
rich_sasha wrote: post #8

A whole different angle, I wonder how well the FSF folk get on with RMS. For all the defenses people mount of him, no one says he's a nice guy to be around. I'm still against the Twitter mob etc., I do wonder though if RMS nuked his own organisation by joining the helm again. Life's unfair.

FSF employees said they unionized to deal with him.[1][2] And more recent accounts are bad too.[3] [1] https://twitter.com/paulnivin/status/1374499598853545986 [2] https://twitter.com/NovalisDMT/status/1172573166956437505 [3] https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232

Well, that’s tangible and something I can relate to. Though still seems far from Twitter mobs, seems better suited in a labour court or sth.

But it also answers my question, and it sounds like perhaps FSF is itself not stoked to have him back.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#335

Post by read_if_gay_ »

tspiteri wrote: post #60
kosinus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American freedom of speech This specifically is such a weird expression. Other than that, just because Stallman did a good thing once, doesn’t excuse him from other mistakes. And making mistakes is not itself a problem, you can always own up to them and learn. But what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour.

> did a good thing once Discounting something as "a good thing once" sounds weird to me: many things require a huge amount of work to carry off, so "once" here can encompass dedicating someone's life work for decades, just for that one thing. (Sorry for going off topic, as I'm not commenting either way on your point, just on this phrase.)

It’s completely flipped. Reality’s more like he did a bad thing once and now that’s supposed to invalidate all of the good he’s done.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#336

Post by buisi »

smt88 wrote: post #33
risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

"Tolerance" doesn't mean someone can have any prominent position they want. I completely support Stallman's right to say that he believes children can consent to sex. It's not sexist or edgy -- it's repulsive and sounds like the stuff Epstein used to say. But he still deserves to have friends and rights. What he doesn't deserve is coworkers or teammates who are forced to pretend he didn't say that stuff. He said it a…

I think some people have a very naive view of consenting to sex.

The idea is they ask someone whether they want to do it, they say yes, and they do it. And they don't really see the harm there. Everyone's happy, right?

But, children lack the knowledge to understand what it is they are asking. Children might also agree to things they shouldn't because they want attention, even if it is bad for them, and hurts them.

Teenagers might be better off but they're hormone propelled and may make mistakes they really shouldn't. There are power imbalances too where someone feels they should do something they really don't want to do.

To be clear, I'm not for criminalizing sex where a small age gap is involved. Throwing teenagers in prison for having sex with each other is counter-productive and harmful. There are better ways to tackle that. The same applies to sexting.

But, the burden which would have to be met for an adult to be involved is so high, so risky, and so convoluted that it isn't worth it in practice. Can a judge really make the right call all the time there? Is it worth it?

By the way, he has never tweeted his theoretical support for statutory rape. I don't think he even has a twitter account. He made some comments on an obscure personal blog over a couple of decades. Someone went out of their way to dig it out after he appeared in the news.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#337

Post by user-the-name »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #102
user-the-name wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying all the people, from many different backgrounds, organisations, and genders, are all lying when they talk about RMS's abusive and harassing behaviour?

Most of those people have never been in the same room with RMS.

I am talking specifically, and only, about the people who have been in the same room with RMS.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#338

Post by read_if_gay_ »

Traster wrote: post #261

Personally, I don't think the leader of any organisation is really free to make public comments about controversial issues and expect them not to reflect on the organisation they lead. I don't want to know what the leader of the FSF thinks about rape, the age of consent of the pros and cons of aborting foetuses. Which leaves two options: Either RMS stops publicly talking about those issues, or RMS stop being the lead…

That seems weird - you’d rather have RMS keep his controversial opinions in secret than have him state them and ultimately change his mind?

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#339

Post by user-the-name »

incrudible wrote: post #101
Jonnax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman has stated that he does not have Aspergers or Autism. But for some reason people online can't stop themselves from diagnosing him with it.

He may not have sought a clinical diagnosis, or if he does he may not want to disclose it, which is within his rights. Nevertheless, he clearly and obviously displays so many symptoms from that spectrum that it would only be charitable to treat his communications under the assumptions that there's something there.

Even if he does, it in no way whatsoever excuses his awful behaviour, abuse and harassment. And it is cowardly and incredibly insulting to those who do suffer from it to claim it is.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#340

Post by smt88 »

buisi wrote: post #336
smt88 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tolerance" doesn't mean someone can have any prominent position they want. I completely support Stallman's right to say that he believes children can consent to sex. It's not sexist or edgy -- it's repulsive and sounds like the stuff Epstein used to say. But he still deserves to have friends and rights. What he doesn't deserve is coworkers or teammates who are forced to pretend he didn't say that stuff. He said it a…

I think some people have a very naive view of consenting to sex. The idea is they ask someone whether they want to do it, they say yes, and they do it. And they don't really see the harm there. Everyone's happy, right? But, children lack the knowledge to understand what it is they are asking. Children might also agree to things they shouldn't because they want attention, even if it is bad for them, and hurts them. Te…

> By the way, he has never tweeted...

I know. I was just using a common, public method of communication as an example that's more relatable for us.

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