John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation • Hacker News Board

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#261

Post by Traster » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:13 AM UTC

Personally, I don't think the leader of any organisation is really free to make public comments about controversial issues and expect them not to reflect on the organisation they lead. I don't want to know what the leader of the FSF thinks about rape, the age of consent of the pros and cons of aborting foetuses. Which leaves two options: Either RMS stops publicly talking about those issues, or RMS stop being the leader of the FSF.

When you want to lead a public organisation you give up certain freedoms in order to serve the interests of the organisation you lead.

I also think it's quite funny seeing the letter from the people who are being accused of being a mob. It's a relatively unemotional statement of their case with citations pointing to the underlying issues they're referring to. Where the reponse, which is meant to be the balanced rational people supporting an unfairly attacked man is highly emotive, poorly argued and doesn't actually address half the issues RMS is being criticised for. Some of the most obvious arguments against RMS leader the FSF actually come from the letter defending him.

>His words need to be interpreted in this context and taking into account that more often than not, he is not looking to put things diplomatically.

Well maybe that's not a good trait for the leader of the FSF.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#262

Post by orra » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:14 AM UTC

prepend wrote: post #242

orra wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The footnote of that policy allows you to persistently call a trans man "they", even if his preferred pronoun is he. That is, the policy endorses you misgendering. Calling a he/him person a "they" is a way of saying that you don't think they're a real man. It's really not much better than calling a trans man "her". Finally, the previous version of the said guidelines used to reject singular they. Singular they is a g…

They explicitly call out ways to respect and accommodate all pronouns. This footnote describes methods of using pronouns so that they don’t conflict in situations where a pronoun may not be known or understood. The previous item says that gender identity should be respected and so purposely using the wrong pronoun would be in conflict here. Interpreting this footnote that seems to provide more detail on how to work w…

> Interpreting this footnote [...]

No, the footnote itself is very clear that it's OK to call a trans man "they" and never "he", if you reject his identity and would prefer to call him "she".

We cannot excuse the footnote just because the main text is better.

> Especially since it seems to be pro trans and pro inclusivity.

Moreover, the context is this document used to reject calling non-binary they people "they".

So the context is this document used to be outright transphobic. Thus skepticism is warranted. Has the document improved? Substantially. Is it still problematic? Very much so.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#263

Post by the-dude » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:17 AM UTC

ganafagol wrote: post #251

the-dude wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I am saying it seems like some millenials seem unaware of the possible consequences of their behaviour to others and to themselves. And if there is a confrontation, they'll report you to their teacher ( police ). While when I grew up, when I misbehaved in traffic, say concerning a taxi(cab), the driver would stop, make his opinion loudly heard, perhaps accompanied by a threat of violence ( this actually happened…

So instead of calling a mediator you would have preferred if she had taken matters in her own hands and tried to beat you up? Upon which you'd have hit back in self defense? Of course that's not what you mean. I suppose you mean that instead of crying for help from the teacher she should have just swallowed it up and obeyed you. But it goes both ways. Imagine you had a teenage daughter and she'd be accused of somethi…

I appreciate your response. What I find puzzling about most responses is that it is not fully acknowledged that she is already behaving violently by threatening injury to others by using her vehicle as a weapon basically. If you hit an elderly full-front with a bicycle, I wouldn't be surprised if they died of the consequences.

And you are correct I am not promoting bullying, that would be insane. But total non-violence has its negative consequences too.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#264

Post by ardfard » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:17 AM UTC

orra wrote: post #153

2pEXgD0fZ5cF wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't comment on most of the accusations, I have never met rms in person. But what really shocked me was that the authors of the anti rms letter label him as "transphobe", as a source for that claim they link to his GNU Kind Communications Guidelines [1], which to me spell the exact opposite. Why put such a claim in there? I find it really disturbing that so many people willingly accept that it's ok to mix legitima…

The footnote of that policy allows you to persistently call a trans man "they", even if his preferred pronoun is he. That is, the policy endorses you misgendering. Calling a he/him person a "they" is a way of saying that you don't think they're a real man. It's really not much better than calling a trans man "her". Finally, the previous version of the said guidelines used to reject singular they. Singular they is a g…

> The footnote of that policy allows you to persistently call a trans man "they", even if his preferred pronoun is he. That is, the policy endorses you misgendering.

This one of example here is why I think RMS debacle is a bit overblown. This really just stretching it to make his statement seems offensive. It even put him in a stance in which he never had.

I cannot in my best intention to read "Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity." as endorsing misgendering.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#265

Post by frereubu » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:18 AM UTC

Shish2k wrote: post #221

aboringusername wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. I take issue with this. I'm not hugely adept at history but from my understanding there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society - this seems to me very American and appears very detached from reality and real world experience. Yes, you are…

> None of these things are new to humanity The speed and the scale at which “a random throwaway comment to a friend” can be taken out of context and used to ruin a person’s life are pretty new

Jon Ronson is particularly good on this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07hj3ky

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#266

Post by Roark66 » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:18 AM UTC

orra wrote: post #153

2pEXgD0fZ5cF wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't comment on most of the accusations, I have never met rms in person. But what really shocked me was that the authors of the anti rms letter label him as "transphobe", as a source for that claim they link to his GNU Kind Communications Guidelines [1], which to me spell the exact opposite. Why put such a claim in there? I find it really disturbing that so many people willingly accept that it's ok to mix legitima…

The footnote of that policy allows you to persistently call a trans man "they", even if his preferred pronoun is he. That is, the policy endorses you misgendering. Calling a he/him person a "they" is a way of saying that you don't think they're a real man. It's really not much better than calling a trans man "her". Finally, the previous version of the said guidelines used to reject singular they. Singular they is a g…

[flagged]

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#267

Post by ben_w » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:19 AM UTC

orra wrote: post #161

bitwize wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the bit about singular "they". RMS for some reason doesn't like singular "they", despite the fact that it predates singular "you" in common English usage. Singular "they" also happens to be, by far, the preferred pronoun of nonbinary people. By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people from participation in GNU projects.

That policy has since been updated to allow singular they, despite Stallman's objection to singular they. But now the footnote of the policy would allow you to call a trans woman "they" and never "her". That's not something transphobes (or anybody else) would ever do to a cis woman.

FWIW, I tried to get in the habit of using singular-“they” for everyone, even where I know their gender and they are cis, to reduce any subconscious gender bias. This has had two effects: learning that some trans people really don’t like that, and everyone assuming my partner is a dude. (He is, but I’m bi and therefore this is mere coincidence).

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#268

Post by Traster » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:26 AM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #55

We almost Linus Torwalds because of the cancel culture, would be a big loss to lose RMS because he is no longer good PR to have him, bonus points if some big business like Google or Red Hat could grab the leadership of FSF and GNU. There was a few days back a post for people to support RMS and I admit I did not put my name on the list because i am afraid this could affect my future, cancel culture could get worse and…

Your reference to Linus is a great example that completely undermines the entire fundamental argument of "cancel culture". If people complain about your bad behaviour, you apoligize and we all move on that's not cancel culture is it. That's just people making mistakes, being picked up on them and apoligizing. People aren't setting out to cancel anyone, they've highlighted something they don't like, explained why it's unacceptable, the person at fault has listened and apologized. It's the perfect example of why it's not cancel culture, they entire point of cancel culture is you're not meant to be able to just make amends - you've been "cancelled"

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#269

Post by Daho0n » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:27 AM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #33

risky_opinions wrote: post #9

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He als…

"Tolerance" doesn't mean someone can have any prominent position they want. I completely support Stallman's right to say that he believes children can consent to sex. It's not sexist or edgy -- it's repulsive and sounds like the stuff Epstein used to say. But he still deserves to have friends and rights. What he doesn't deserve is coworkers or teammates who are forced to pretend he didn't say that stuff. He said it a…

The consequence was that he talked to people about it, changed his mind and apologized. That this gets brought up after the fact is not a consequence of his current opinion and everyone knows this. This is a consequence of a mistake he were big enough to public apologize for (unlike most people online) and then later used against him.

Besides much of what RMS is saying and doing that makes him stick out and he gets harassed over is because of him being neuroatypical.

Re: John Sullivan resign as executive director of the Free Software Foundation

#270

Post by Roark66 » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 11:29 AM UTC

incrudible wrote: post #71

aboringusername wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. I take issue with this. I'm not hugely adept at history but from my understanding there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society - this seems to me very American and appears very detached from reality and real world experience. Yes, you are…

> Yes, you are accountable for the communications you make, whether via keybord, orally, or any other way. I agree that you are accountable for the things you say. Unfortunately, people are attempting to hold RMS accountable for things he did not say. This situation is the result of willful misinterpretation and dishonest and sensationalist media reporting. The principle of charity must be applied, particularly with…

> Yes, you are accountable for the communications you make, whether via keybord, orally, or any other way. I agree that you are accountable for the things you say. Unfortunately, people are attempting to hold RMS accountable for things he did not say. This situation is the result of willful misinterpretation and dishonest and sensationalist media reporting.

Hold on here for a moment. We're in our collective two minutes of hate. You have to hate or you WILL be the next object of hate. Truth has nothing to do with it.

It really saddens me deeply that our civilisation regressed so much in last few dacades. There are really important topics we should be able to discuss and make better that we can't because of it.