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China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

economist.com

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Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#81

Post by bxbb »

hayst4ck wrote: post #71
justinzollars wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is sailing the 7th fleet off of the Chinese coast and has China surrounded by military bases, some very close to the Chinese mainland. The Shanghai Communiqué - Joint Communique of the United States of America and the People's Republic of China, settled the Taiwan question in the 1970's: http://www.taiwandocuments.org/communique01.htm > The U.S. side declared: The United States acknowledges that all…

> If you put yourself in China's shoes, and consider China's history. How would you feel if a Chinese fleet was sailing off of the coast of California and stoking internal tensions? The question is phrased awkwardly and with a forgone conclusion. The world "internal" is key. Does a Taiwanese see that as an internal issue? Did a Hong Kong person see that as an internal issue? In an oppressor/opressee relationship I wo…

> Does a Taiwanese see that as an internal issue?

Up until 2000 election, Kuomintang still hold majority power, with brief resurgence during 2008 election after DPP tried to separate Taiwan identity from China proper. The party position is generally unchanged: that they consider themselves the true government of China.

DPP's position to ignore one-China conundrum historically met with skepticism from industrialist and labor population, since a clear separation between two entities would mean a substantial damage in economy. DPP only regained their votes in 2016 after softening their stance on independence. And they're [slowly losing trust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Taiwanese_presidential_el...) from swing voters, again.

So, yeah. Until Taiwan could make up its mind about their national identity and cross-strait relationship with Mainland China, it's still an internal issue.

> say Trump won through an obviously fraudulent election, and Hawaii no longer wanted to be a part of America (rightfully so!), and the Chinese military was protecting Hawaii from being ruled without public consent, I would very much be happy about this Chinese fleet.

That's a wildly different analogy. Imagine instead, that while the last election result is contested, a mob successfully storm the Capitol and reinstate Trump in his second term. Biden flee to Hawaii and declare the state as US government in exile.

Fast forward 30 years and nothing really settled between Republican in US and Democrats in Hawaii because diplomacy is hard and both refused to negotiate (one had the power while the other had the legitimacy). And then China started to put their fleet because Blacks, Native American, and "Hawaiian" is oppressed.

How would you think that would affect those people's future?

Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#82

Post by hayst4ck »

bxbb wrote: post #81
hayst4ck wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you put yourself in China's shoes, and consider China's history. How would you feel if a Chinese fleet was sailing off of the coast of California and stoking internal tensions? The question is phrased awkwardly and with a forgone conclusion. The world "internal" is key. Does a Taiwanese see that as an internal issue? Did a Hong Kong person see that as an internal issue? In an oppressor/opressee relationship I wo…

> Does a Taiwanese see that as an internal issue? Up until 2000 election, Kuomintang still hold majority power, with brief resurgence during 2008 election after DPP tried to separate Taiwan identity from China proper. The party position is generally unchanged: that they consider themselves the true government of China. DPP's position to ignore one-China conundrum historically met with skepticism from industrialist an…

Clearly if China was not being coercive/threatening they would declare themselves as an independent country. They operate as an independent country. They have their own military. The leader does not answer to China. They make effort away from china rather than closer. They are de facto independent. Do you think that position is held because of the consequences of messing with the status quo, or do you think it's there because it's truly believed? Do you think any Taiwanese citizens are sitting there plotting the running of Continental Taiwan?

>So, yeah. Until Taiwan could make up its mind about their national identity and cross-strait relationship with Mainland China, it's still an internal issue.

This statement isn't at all good faith. Clearly it's much more complex than that. You are saying the party line while ignoring any possibility of good faith argument otherwise. There is no invocation of the idea of what is morally right. There is no contemplation of what the Taiwanese people see as best for themselves.

  What do you think would happen in Taiwan today if they rescinded their "right" to rule China?
  If you were Taiwanese, what would you want to happen?
  If you were Non Han Taiwanese, what would you want to happen?
  How do you think Taiwanese children grow up learning about the China Taiwan situation?
  What kind of culture do you think young Taiwanese are indoctrinated with?
  How do you think a society that has freedom of speech considers its loss?
  How do you think a society that has rule of law considers its loss?
  What was the Taiwanese reaction to Hong Kong?
  Why do Taiwanese keep buying weapons?
  Is all Chinese trade to Taiwan a "gift"?
  What types of punitive things would China do for being embarrassed by Taiwan's rejection?
  Is the KMT/DPP of today, the same ruling "party" with the same "mindset" of yesteryear?
  Did the KMT have to step back on their pro China stance to become viable?
  Are the children of these "rebels" supposed to pay for the crimes of their parents?
Do you not see the slightest problem with the situation of holding a gun to someones head and then shouting "ARE YOU INDEPENDENT?!"

"Look, they said they're not independent, this is obviously an internal issue."

> How would you think that would affect those people's future?

That scenario makes no sense and there is insufficient information to judge it. It doesn't resonate with me. I wold probably be on one of the Islands.

Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#83

Post by mlindner »

oreally wrote: post #42
jonathannat wrote: post #9

With regards to Xinjiang sanctions, China has also - sanctioned US/Canadian/UK/EU individuals and entities - erased H&M in all major Chinese platforms https://wwd.com/business-news/retail/hm-face-new-boycott-chi... While that's happening, China has also - signed a 25-year cooperation agreement with Iran - censored 'stock market' term from social media searches after stocks posted longest losing streak https://markets…

Sounds like the typical westernized narrow view of China. Whenever there's a rising power that threatens the current number #1, you'll see such events happening. It has happened time and again and the only difference now is that there is far less blood being spilled. On the flip side, the rest of the world remembers what dirty things the US did during it's hold on global power. WMDs in iraq, double ethical standards…

It's funny you speak for the rest of the world when it's quite clear in what they publicly say that they support the US rather than attack it.

Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#84

Post by mlindner »

8note wrote: post #58
jonathannat wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a very US-centric response. As I wrote > China sanctioned US/Canadian/UK/EU individuals and entities > erased H&M (swedish company) in all major Chinese platforms

Those are all American colonies. What's the difference?

EU, Canada, the UK, and Sweden are American colonies are they now? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#85

Post by mlindner »

anaccountwow wrote: post #34
jonathannat wrote: post #9

With regards to Xinjiang sanctions, China has also - sanctioned US/Canadian/UK/EU individuals and entities - erased H&M in all major Chinese platforms https://wwd.com/business-news/retail/hm-face-new-boycott-chi... While that's happening, China has also - signed a 25-year cooperation agreement with Iran - censored 'stock market' term from social media searches after stocks posted longest losing streak https://markets…

This tweet by Xinhua (state media) gave the same impression. It's bizarre: https://twitter.com/xhnews/status/1375271937442603012

Good grief. I really wonder if they think African Americans are dumb.

Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#86

Post by aembleton »

TeeMassive wrote: post #3

I didn't read the article because it's behind a paywall, but I was wondering, is the Chinese market that much of a deal for Western companies given selling things in China is much harder than the other way around?

Here's a copy of the article: https://smallpdf.com/shared#st=355d9816-1cd2-405a-984c-353e4...

Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#87

Post by vkou »

tirrex wrote: post #76
vkou wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who hate the constant flamewars about China are probably flagging these posts. I've yet to see a single thread that's even tangentially related to the country not devolve into nationalistic tug-of-war.

There are pro-china posts with same discussions under them but nobody flags these posts. This is not specific to hn, a common thing you can see on other platforms. This is unacceptable, feels like censorship spreading from China to my home and it must be called out.

If you think HN has a pro-China bias, make some posts that express pro-China ideas, and see what happens to your karma.

Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#88

Post by justinzollars »

hayst4ck wrote: post #71
justinzollars wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is sailing the 7th fleet off of the Chinese coast and has China surrounded by military bases, some very close to the Chinese mainland. The Shanghai Communiqué - Joint Communique of the United States of America and the People's Republic of China, settled the Taiwan question in the 1970's: http://www.taiwandocuments.org/communique01.htm > The U.S. side declared: The United States acknowledges that all…

> If you put yourself in China's shoes, and consider China's history. How would you feel if a Chinese fleet was sailing off of the coast of California and stoking internal tensions? The question is phrased awkwardly and with a forgone conclusion. The world "internal" is key. Does a Taiwanese see that as an internal issue? Did a Hong Kong person see that as an internal issue? In an oppressor/opressee relationship I wo…

No need to make it personal. Yes I have been to Taiwan, Yes I have been to mainland China.

Considering your hypothetical scenario, it is hypothetical. The reality of the situation is, in 1970 the United States already conceded that Taiwan is part of China in exchange for a Chinese guarantee that the matter would be resolved peacefully. In Exchange we gained access to Chinese markets for which we all benefit tremendously today. China's UN representation and vote, was transferred from Taipei to Beijing.

The real question, is a difficult one. How far are we willing to go to enforce the wests concept of universalism? A loss of an aircraft carrier and 5,000 lives? All out war? The point was already conceded 40 years ago. Seems like stoking fires isn't in my personal interest, especially considering that is a war we would certainly lose. Whats the point of playing games you can't win?

Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#89

Post by inawarminister »

justinzollars wrote: post #65
jonathannat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

first link is "The World in 2050 report was published in February 2017" second link is only regarding goods. goods + services, US is EU top trade partner third link: there are now Japan/Australian/US/UK/France/German warships patrolling in the indo-pacific region. fourth link: costly to maintain, uncertainty post covid

Many British believed they were number 1, a world leader, long after they were left behind and this was not the case.

Britain fell due to the necessity of containing a neighbouring state which have bigger population, better productivity, and the advantage of not having an empire abroad of a continent.

At the end, the Brits fell after pummeling Germany two times. Both haven't recovered fully today. So this historical analogue doesn't really speak well to both US and China in the next, say, 3 generations. Wonder who would be the US in this situation though.

Re: China boycotts Western clothes brands over Xinjiang cotton

#90

Post by tirrex »

vkou wrote: post #87
tirrex wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are pro-china posts with same discussions under them but nobody flags these posts. This is not specific to hn, a common thing you can see on other platforms. This is unacceptable, feels like censorship spreading from China to my home and it must be called out.

If you think HN has a pro-China bias, make some posts that express pro-China ideas, and see what happens to your karma.

I’m just saying pro-China guys good at flagging posts which criticize China. This doesn’t mean overall HN has a pro-China bias. You see posts praising China how did they achieve something about tech/production/organization etc with same flamewar comments under but nobody flags them and they reach first page, stay there as much as other non flagged posts.
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