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Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

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Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#231

Post by anovikov »

postmeta wrote: post #195
anovikov wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, any substantiative discussion will be way too complex for most people who could fall to these conspiracy theories, to understand, and they will arrive to a conclusion like "these Jews are trying to look too smart and bullshit us". Sadly, this asymmetrical warfare from authoritarian nations hits the right point: it forces us to either let misinformation flow and people become manipulated by it, or to revert…

or increase transparency and demand accountability from platforms amplifying messages without transparent traceability of information.

...which is the exact opposite of what these platforms, as businesses, were designed to do: maximally amplify and disperse the most "clickable" information - which is the one understandable to everyone (dumb) and appealing to people's instincts (authoritarian, because we are herd animals).

given the power these platforms have, i highly doubt this attempt to regulate their business in a clearly negative way to them, can be successful. they are so powerful, even CCP is afraid of them, starting a crackdown on social media in China.

Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#232

Post by alkonaut »

lucian1900 wrote: post #219
alkonaut wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Have you read what you linked? There’s a lot of supposition and extrapolation on undefined terms. A lot of words as an excuse to bash a country already under attack. It’s not like Sweden doesn’t have a long history of imperialism either. I’m well aware we communists aren’t welcome on HN. Considering it’s US-centric and has a bourgeois focus, it’s not surprising it would welcome only right-wing politics. Still, it doe…

[flagged]

Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#233

Post by notafraudster »

varispeed wrote: post #144
tsimionescu wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. It's definitely a conversation worth having, given the advancements in public speech through social media. There is no reason to believe that 200-year-old laws should be the end of the conversation.

What if the law said that operator of a platform cannot delete user content, as long as it does not break the law and shouldn't artificially limit its exposure? In the event that the platform runs out of space they should be allowed to charge people reasonable amount for the space.

I would not use any platform that doesn't delete viagra spam or work from home spam or any of the other things we recognize are awful (say, someone spamming pages of all-caps AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA or Ż̵̧̦͈͕̼̜̫̦̟͈͎̆̈͒̀͆̉a̶̩̺͊̔͑́͆̕ļ̴̨͇̲͈͓̥̝̠̜̘̠̹̫̀̋͛̄g̸̹͇̫̗̼̺̰͍̻̦̯̹͆̆̈́̂͜͜ǒ̶̧̪̹͖͖̮̻̹̻̮̦͐́̌̐̀͐̃̒̓̏͝ ̷̠̯̹̣͖͍̩̦̪́̀̾ͅt̵̼͈͉͖̯̫̪̟͔͛͌̐̿̎́͌̇ͅe̶̫͓̖̲͍̞̞͈̎̔̿͐x̴̛̠̺̮̼̏͒̀̒̎t̸̮̼͔͖̹͙̦͚͙̣̜̍͋̈́͌). I regard a platform that won't remove this stuff as bad, user-hostile, and not worth using. In fact, I would think pretty poorly of Hacker News if moderators didn't want to remove what I've already posted because frankly the above text is annoying and detracts from the site.

I think any law that requires that platforms allow the signal to noise ratio to go through shit via spam (and in your specific law, even sets a minimum price to be permitted to spam) would be a bad one.

If you allow platforms to remove posts based on content, as I think you should, then we're back to having a debate about which particular types of content should be protected by law, or else which particular types of content a platform ought remove (irrespective of whether they are compelled to or not). You might disagree with me about which types of content those would be, but supposing we are in this type of world, then it is possible that the process of adjudicating which types of content might be removed could ultimately arrive at an end-point where fraudulent health claims (not so far removed from viagra spam!) are one of those types of content.

Also, as relates Hacker News, it's hard to imagine a world where it is illegal for a site owner to remove content a user posted, but it is legal for peer users, using a voting algorithm, to do so (by virtue of downvoting posts until they are dead or hidden). Would this lead to, for instance, wanting to impose criminal sanction on sockpuppet accounts, since we feel using multiple accounts to downvote is tantamount to interference that would be illegal if done by a moderator? This strikes me as a bit much.

Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#234

Post by notafraudster »

wpasc wrote: post #98
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a specific policy against bad medical advice (which is easy to determine), but not against being a ruthless dictator (which can be very subjective). Seems consistent to me.

Bad medical device is easy to determine? Are masks effective or ineffective against covid? Are fats good or bad for you? Are carbs bad for you? How many times a day should you eat? How much cholesterol in your food matters? What's the perfect amount of water to drink? Is veganism healthy? is paleo healthy?

Your questions seem to exploit an asymmetry between the comment you're responding to and your examples. I can't tell you "how many times a day should you eat", but I can tell you there are theoretically claims about eating which are obviously beyond the pale -- for example claims about Mystical Gurus who live for years without eating off the sunlight.

I would imagine that if I were asked to determine whether something is bad medical advice, I might consider some of the following questions:

- What is the strength of the consensus on the issue? - Does the claim advance evidence that the consensus is wrong which actually engages with the consensus? - Does the claim advance a powerful cause to action? - If wrong, is the claim likely to lead to immediate or irreparable harm if followed? - Is the claim posed authoritatively or speculatively? - Is the person doing the posing attempting to convince others, or just expressing themselves? - Does the claim engage with its own shortcomings or leave room for the possibility that it is wrong? - Does the claim have only private health consequences, or does it have public health consequences?

And while each of those have a continuum of answers, I might holistically come to the conclusion that a particular claim is "bad medical advice", and I might do so fairly easily, given a certain threshold for bad medical advice.

It seems to me less that you're saying it's hard to determine that something is bad medical advice, and more that there exists some medical advice which is neither clearly bad nor good. The two things aren't in opposition.

So, I feel comfortable saying "Human beings should not drink water because it is poison" is bad medical advice -- and it was very easy for me to determine that -- while a debate about, say, whether there's a particular target amount of water or if people should just drink water when thirsty might be supported or unsupported without rising to the standard of bad medical advice.

By the standards I have just elucidated, the Maduro claim strikes me as trivially bad-faith and unsupported medical advice made declaratively to a huge audience with fairly large likely public health risk, and so I would qualify it as bad medical advice.

Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#235

Post by watwut »

wincy wrote: post #93
alkonaut wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t really need to worry about drawing the line between facts and lies just because you remove the 10% most blatant disinformation. It doesn’t make Facebook the final arbiter of truth. There are things that are controversial or debated and Facebook and others stay away from that. Advocating injecting bleach or eating albinos to cure Covid is one thing while arguing the amount of asymptotic transmission is anoth…

Does Facebook ban controversial statements such as “children should be given hormone blocking therapy if they request it, regardless of the wishes of their parents, even if it sterilizes them” or “transgender women should be allowed to go to/volunteer at battered women’s shelters”. Espousing the opposing viewpoint is a fast track to getting banned from Twitter/Facebook or wherever else. Note I’m not making a judgemen…

This is first time I see someone worry about trans in battered women shelter. It just sounds like one of these made up issues that actual domestic violence activists dont seem to care about.

Battered women shelters also dont always have exclusively female staff. They do lean more female afaik, but penis won't prevent you to work as lawyer, psychologist, security etc.

What that worry shows mostly is that whoever is creating panic about this one was never interested in domestic violence - nor even curious about it.

Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#236

Post by tsimionescu »

notafraudster wrote: post #233
varispeed wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the law said that operator of a platform cannot delete user content, as long as it does not break the law and shouldn't artificially limit its exposure? In the event that the platform runs out of space they should be allowed to charge people reasonable amount for the space.

I would not use any platform that doesn't delete viagra spam or work from home spam or any of the other things we recognize are awful (say, someone spamming pages of all-caps AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA or Ż̵̧̦͈͕̼̜̫̦̟͈͎̆̈͒̀͆̉a̶̩̺͊̔͑́͆̕ļ̴̨͇̲͈͓̥̝̠̜̘̠̹̫̀̋͛̄g̸̹͇̫̗̼̺̰͍̻̦̯̹͆̆̈́̂͜͜ǒ̶̧̪̹͖͖̮̻̹̻̮̦͐́̌̐̀͐̃̒̓̏͝ ̷̠̯̹̣͖͍̩̦̪́̀̾ͅt̵̼͈͉͖̯̫̪̟͔͛͌̐̿̎́͌̇ͅe̶̫͓̖̲͍̞̞͈̎̔̿͐x̴̛̠̺̮̼̏͒̀̒̎t̸̮̼͔͖̹͙̦͚͙̣̜̍͋̈́͌). I regard a platform that won't remove this stu…

Excellent points. Platforms obviously need to have some power of moderation for spam and off-topic remarks.

One idea for a type of system for adjudicating disputes would be something similar ot the jury system used in common law countries. When a conflict arises (some moderator deletes a post whose poster feels is within the rules), a set of users could be chosen randomly and asked to deliberate whether that is the case or not. This would be similar to a court proceeding, with the accuser and accused allowed to argue their case, but much less formal. Participation in such juries would just be a cost of using the platform. This would not apply to posts that are removed for legal reasons, where the regular legal system would have to be used instead.

Note that spam is generally already illegal, and advertising products with specific health claims that you do not have proof for is definitely illegal in many jurisdictions (fraud / false advertising).

I would also expect that any such moderation should only apply to broadcast messages. Direct, private communication between two or more people must not be moderated in any way (though users should be given certain tools to help them, such as optional spam filters, the ability to block specific people from sending them messages, etc).

Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#237

Post by Izkata »

shpongled wrote: post #215
Izkata wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Killing viruses or bacteria in vitro is a vastly different thing than killing them in vivo. > https://xkcd.com/1217/ Carvacrol is a component of oregano oil, a common herbal supplement. This is one case where the XKCD strip is clearly wrong. > Also, if you want to cite some evidence, Braz J Microbiol might not be the best source. Is the Brazilian Journal of Microbiology not trusted or something?

> This is one case where the XKCD strip is clearly wrong. How so? > Is the Brazilian Journal of Microbiology not trusted or something? Well it's not Nature, that's for sure

The premise of the XKCD strip is that whatever was being tested isn't necessarily safe for humans. This however we already know is safe for humans because it's available in over-the-counter supplements, and the herb it comes from is used in cooking.

Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#238

Post by sofixa »

alacombe wrote: post #227
sofixa wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good, let's try to convince anti-vaxxers, Q people, Covid-deniers and what not of that, it will surely work! Of course it won't, because people tend to listen to other people due to a variety of reasons ( personal charisma, luck, circumstances, etc.). We wouldn't have cults and science deniers otherwise.

> Good, let's try to convince anti-vaxxers, Q people, Covid-deniers and what not of that, it will surely work! You don't seem to understand. Don't tell them on Day 1 that mask are useless, and on Day 2 that mask are mandatory under threat of jail. Tell them on Day 1 that you fucked up and destroyed mask supplies a few years before and that you're not prepared anymore. Though, that will never happen as these people wa…

Or maybe our knowledge of the situation and the unknown virus was evolving? And the rate of asymptomatic cases, and the fact that they still spread the virus wasn't initially known/certain? Why the binary approach?

Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#239

Post by mullingitover »

ativzzz wrote: post #119
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is unfortunate, but US shot itself in the foot by proving that it is not willing to be a neutral third party, which it was perceived as in the 90s.

The US hasn't been a neutral third party in any worldwide matter since WW1. The U.S's foreign policy is aggressively selfish (which is good for US citizens)

Every state is selfish, it's one of the fundamental principles of foreign relations. Even when states are altruistic (e.g. the US Centers for Disease Control doing epidemic surveillance and distributing Ebola vaccines in Africa, or sending foreign aid to poverty-stricken countries) ultimately it's for self-serving reasons. The global system is essentially anarchism.

Re: Facebook freezes Venezuela president Maduro's page over Covid-19

#240

Post by lucian1900 »

alkonaut wrote: post #232
lucian1900 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read what you linked? There’s a lot of supposition and extrapolation on undefined terms. A lot of words as an excuse to bash a country already under attack. It’s not like Sweden doesn’t have a long history of imperialism either. I’m well aware we communists aren’t welcome on HN. Considering it’s US-centric and has a bourgeois focus, it’s not surprising it would welcome only right-wing politics. Still, it doe…

[flagged]

Maduro isn’t starving his people, that’s US sanctions. Putin is a social democrat that brought back the healthcare system after the shock therapy enforced by the US.

I’m not excusing crimes, I’m explaining you are being consistently lied to. Media in imperialist countries has a vested interest in perpetuating an incorrect but monstrous image of anyone opposed.

Were the missing WMDs in Iraq and the Nayirah testimony not enough to make you sceptical? Do you remember Galizia getting murdered over the Panama papers? Or Black Panthers getting murdered by police over feeding the poor? Or even just Assange being pursued and tortured over reporting on NATO crimes?

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