Earlier quoted context omitted.
He really got under your skin didn’t He? It was a joke my friend.
Jokes aren't well tolerated on HN to begin with, and that comment seems a lot more obnoxious than funny.
You speak the truth.
French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
101–110 of 145 posts
Re: French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>I don't know why you would advocate de-lactosed milk, lactase supplements, or "sneaking a little bit in" Are you definitely replying to the correct comment? I'm not advocating anything. I'm purely stating a fact that just because 68% of humanity is lactose intolerant doesn't mean 68% of humanity does not consume milk. I just said lactose free milk exists(because it does), lactose-digestion enzyme pills exist(becaus…
You don't need paid sponsorships to push your colonialist attitudes on other people.
Stating simple facts that anyone can google in 5 seconds is colonialist? Are you for real?
Or maybe....you're the one with some kind of agenda here? Because I can't believe anyone would read into my comments as hard as you do. Or I don't know, do you take those simple facts as some kind of personal attack?
Re: French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If they had free will, they would fight for it or at least some of them would. What would that look like? Running away? Because that behaviour pops up in news often enough. Conversely, there’s learned helplessness — discovered by animal research and yet also demonstrated in humans. Do humans demonstrating this lack free will? > One could argue that we still don't know the human brain, so how can we exclude that ani…
> What would that look like? Running away? Because that behaviour pops up in news often enough. Exactly. As I've said if they can't explain to us what they are doing and why, it is completely useless to try to frame or define it. it would simply be what we think it is, but not the real thing > Conversely, there’s learned helplessness — discovered by animal research and yet also demonstrated in humans. Do humans demon…
> As I've said if they can't explain to us what they are doing and why, it is completely useless to try to frame or define it.
You’ve not said why it’s useless though. Or what “free will” is. I can make a chat bot which will insist that it has free will, but I doubt it would be saying anything correct about its mind; and I have every expectation that someone whose language I do not speak would pass and fail exactly the same tests as me if there was a test that didn’t depend on language.
> difference being humans can explain why they ran and we can rationalize post facto and learn from each other
Humans demonstrably make up any old rubbish to justify their actions after the fact — that much is testable. And animals copy each other, so it’s not like non-humans in general can’t learn from each other, though I don’t know about bovines in particular.
> but since we are able to process context, something cows are not capable of,
You recon? Given how much context current vision AI can get, and that current vision AI is about the level of an insect brain, I absolutely expect cows to get context.
> I understood that OP meant the most common meaning of free will: acting in a non predetermined way (however bad or inexact as a definition it is)
> cows don't
Quick internet search of teaching cows tricks says they can act in a non-predetermined way… unless you want to dismiss all behaviour as skinnier boxes and operant conditioning, which would leave humans open to the same criticism.
They are relatively docile, but there were loads in and around Cambridge when I lived there, and no, they were definitely not like cars with no petrol.
> asking for a satisfying definition of free will in this context completely misses the point
I take exception to this. I started by saying “I agree this looks like slavery and torture”, the reply said the concepts didn’t apply because they didn’t have free will. I’m rejecting that, and you’re definitely still describing a situation that sounds like multigenerational slavery to me.
> as I've said I don't believe free will exists
You don’t? That wasn’t clear, but sure — as I said, every testable definition I’ve encountered has either been something animals and humans both have, or both lack.
If you weren’t even trying to change my mind, congratulations on merely confusing me about your intention. :)
> free will, which also involves guilt, morality, responsibility and deliberation AKA being able to determine the consequences of different courses of actions.
Why would it involve those things, and why do you believe cows can’t forecast the consequences of actions? If they couldn’t predict actions having consequences, they’d get stuck as often as hard-coded robots. Given the live in muddy fields, this would make them self-destructively useless as livestock.
(And also, current insect-complexity neural nets can do that, so it would be really surprising if a mammal can’t).
> it's simply the result of some random combination of DNA and environment
Yeah, and that’s true for us, too.
But, as you say, you don’t believe in free will, so that’s fine. :)
Re: French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
The lactose intolerant people I knew all do drink de-lactozed milk or non-cow milk. They also eat it with cereals. Practically, somewhat lactose intolerant people eat food with milk inside (whether in sauce or cheese) and avoid only quantities that cause them troubles. There is really no reason to get offended over that reality. I don't really know why those people consume milk and I was never rude enough to ask. It…
> I don't really know why those people consume milk and I was never rude enough to ask. Can you take any guesses as to why? Do you think it might have anything to do with the colonialist attitude of "of course, everybody drinks milk!" displayed in the parent comment? Are your acquaintances in the US? Do you think it has anything to do with the $500 million spent over 20 years on "Got Milk?" propaganda?
"colonialist attitude of "of course, everybody drinks milk!" displayed in the parent comment? "
You know that simply wanting something to be true doesn't make it so, right?
Re: French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
Either way, a typical female dairy cow during its lifetime is made to give birth about 4 times (they don't give milk otherwise), each time its baby is taken away so maximum milk can be harvested and then the mother is killed about 5 years into its 20 year lifespan when it stops producing as much milk. This is the reality of profitable dairy farming and people don't like to be told about it or think about it. If you t…
It seems that leather is practically a (profitable) byproduct of the dairy industry in this case, no?
The dairy industry is cruel and leather doesn't make up for that.
Re: French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
As it's a monastery we must leave open the possibility of immaculate conception
Immaculate conception refers to the fact that Mary was born free from original sin, not that Jesus was conceived with a sexual intercourse.
Thanks for the correction! All this time I've conflated it with the "virgin birth"
Re: French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
> milk… is something that everyone pretty much still uses today worldwide I don't understand where people come up with this nonsense. Do you just generalize your experience to everyone else? 68% of the world population is lactose intolerant: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28690131/
I don't understand where people come up with this nonsense. All diary products gradually lose lactose as they are processed more and more, so for example 24 month old Gruyere doesn't contain any of it (less than 0.1g for 100g even for standard ones). You can be hardcore intolerant and still enjoy this fine Swiss product or any other from hundreds French ones, British etc. without any issue, in any amount. Plus all th…
Even fresh mozzarella has very little lactose in it, something like 1 g per 100 grams. Any cheese made from curd basically, because the sugar mostly stays in the whey.
(I am lactose intolerant, and I realize the level of discomfort that people experience varies)
Re: French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hope you don’t think you’re pwning them by repeating their point back to them thinking they care that you don’t care about whales and dogs anymore. It’s pretty weak snark, especially because you’re pretending to do something that agrees with their point thinking you got them good. I saw this sad interaction a lot in the wild when someone at lunch at work orders a vegetarian option and someone else leaves them in ab…
I'm just showing that the argument can easily be used to draw the opposite and "wrong" conclusion from the one that was intended to be reached.
You should reach a conclusion based on your beliefs. I don't see what point you prove by starting from beliefs you don't hold if that's what you mean.
Do you genuinely not care if people are killing dolphins and whales and eating dogs though? I've no doubt some people exist that don't but I'm sure they're in the vast minority.
Re: French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
Slightly related to the original post here, if you ever wondered how monks ended up in posession of 75 cows and farming land, Max Miller did an interesting and funny explanation of it on his Tasting History YT channel: https://youtu.be/zz0y1d6IIpY
> if you ever wondered how monks ended up in posession of 75 cows and farming land Did it sound strange to you? Farming and crafts are a core part of many monasteries, and many famous foods and drinks have been invented or refined by monks. Everything from Champagne and Buckfast. They have to do something simple to earn money and keep busy. And they’re usually in the countryside so have farm land by default. What do…
Ora et labora.
Re: French monks locked down with 2.8 tonnes of cheese pray for buyers
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What would that look like? Running away? Because that behaviour pops up in news often enough. Exactly. As I've said if they can't explain to us what they are doing and why, it is completely useless to try to frame or define it. it would simply be what we think it is, but not the real thing > Conversely, there’s learned helplessness — discovered by animal research and yet also demonstrated in humans. Do humans demon…
> As I've said if they can't explain to us what they are doing and why, it is completely useless to try to frame or define it. You’ve not said why it’s useless though. Or what “free will” is. I can make a chat bot which will insist that it has free will, but I doubt it would be saying anything correct about its mind; and I have every expectation that someone whose language I do not speak would pass and fail exactly t…
> Or what “free will” is.
I did
poor terms to describe what we already don't have a solid explanation for
> whose language I do not speak would pass and fail exactly the same tests as me if there was a test that didn’t depend on language.
it doesn't matter, cows lack the tools to explain themselves, we don't
namely, in this case, a language (any language!)
> Quick internet search of teaching cows tricks says they can act in a non-predetermined way
can you prove it? :)
And how do you know it won't end up like the Libet experiment?
> And animals copy each other, so it’s not like non-humans in general can’t learn from each other, though I don’t know about bovines in particular
They don't have history books though, and schools and teachers
DNA does not help much if the knowledge dies with its creator
> If you weren’t even trying to change my mind, congratulations
I don't believe in free will the philosophical tool
I think we have machinery that we still do not understand that make us what we are and most of what we are is due superior processing power
It doesn't matter to me ifnI chose to move my arm, when I am driving and see an obstacle I don't have to think to use the brakes and I am thankful that training built up new neuro-paths to react that way
> Why would it involve those things, and why do you believe cows can’t forecast the consequences of actions?
because to forecast the consequences of every action you need to be able to judge the consequences
if you don't have a framework to judge the consequences, you can't forecast them or at best you can simply forecast an action-reaction scenario: this happens and then this happens, but if you cannot give them a score, all scenarios are equal