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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

reuters.com

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#301

Post by loceng »

hoppyhoppy2 wrote: post #296
loceng wrote: post #287

How is anyone buying into the complete false statement/propaganda that what Elon said is a threat? Has anyone commenting here even read Elon's tweet in question? "Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." - Elon,…

I think the threat is that union members wouldn't get stock options.

That's not a threat - that's called pointing out a fact, it's called reasoning, that employees would be doing themselves when balancing out the pros and cons; just because Elon's pointing out pros and cons doesn't make something a threat. The employees and union still have the ability to decide based on pros and cons.

This is being warped and a lack of reasoning at the same level of absurdity as changing master-slave language in programming to shallowly appeal/respond to racism issues.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#302

Post by cactus2093 »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #209
kome wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

holy fucking shit... https://twitter.com/AmazonNews you are right. woah. they are scared. they are really scared. it's like amazon entire business model is based on exploitation of labor.

>it's like amazon entire business model is based on exploitation of labor Wait till you find out how the electronics and clothes in your house are made and how the materials they're made from are sourced or what the workforce that picks the fruit and vegetables you see in the supermarket, endures. It is rarely (never?) discussed in the west how all the consumer goods are cheap simply because the supply chain relies o…

The percentage of humans living in poverty around the world has never been lower [0]. How is that just spin?

I also can’t relate to your “all we hear about” point at all. I feel like I really have to go out of my way to find any discussion about anything good in the world, the vast majority of what I hear is negative takes like yours about how everything is horrible and everyone is oppressed.

[0] https://data.worldbank.org/topic/11

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#303

Post by loceng »

xutopia wrote: post #300
loceng wrote: post #287

How is anyone buying into the complete false statement/propaganda that what Elon said is a threat? Has anyone commenting here even read Elon's tweet in question? "Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." - Elon,…

I think the devil is in the details here. Is he saying that if people unionize they don't get stock options? Why is that? Is it a threat?

No, it's a fact - pros and cons. Tesla has no obligation to provide stock to employees - and so employees/unions get to decide what is the better potential option for them - and I suppose it's a risk for employees to unionize if they will no longer then be getting stock; unless a union somehow can force Tesla to give X stock to unionized employees, I don't know all nor have I thought through all possibilities - so there's possibly nuance missing but Elon's tweet itself isn't a threat.

Threat's the wrong word but purposefully misused, even if it causes fear or rather it will cause a fear of a sense of loss of value - because if employees value owning/gaining Tesla stock over whatever else they potentially could negotiate through a union, then there's certainly a fear of potential loss - but Elon pointing out that possibility isn't a threat itself.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#304

Post by aphextron »

trixie_ wrote: post #297
KaiserPro wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, the level of inequity in france is nowhere near as much as USA. Sure there arn't as many mega rich, but then there arn't people hundreds of thousands of people being bankrupted by medical bills either.

I thought there are 'out of pocket maximums' set by the government to avoid that? The most that individuals will have to pay out-of-pocket in 2020 is $8,200 and $16,400 for families.

>The most that individuals will have to pay out-of-pocket in 2020 is $8,200 and $16,400 for families.

If you have good insurance, sure. If you're unemployed, one bad illness or injury means instant bankruptcy.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#305

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #285
jbroson wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SO OP gets to claim based on his anecdotal experience that unions are awful and full of lazy people. But pointing out there are wildly successful unions filled with hardworking people is "cherry picking"?

I didn't say unions are not successful, I said that workplaces like VW or Porsche are not the norm in Germany. They're like Germany's FAANG; very successful, but not the norm for every industry employee there since they don't all enjoy such good conditions.

I have yet to hear people in Europe being upset that they are unionized.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#306

Post by loceng »

cinntaile wrote: post #294
loceng wrote: post #287

How is anyone buying into the complete false statement/propaganda that what Elon said is a threat? Has anyone commenting here even read Elon's tweet in question? "Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." - Elon,…

Why would they not get stock options? Sounds like a punishment for voting union?

Punishment? It's negotiation. It's Elon stating that Tesla won't be putting stock options on the table, but a union still could then negotiate - they could potentially negotiate to refuse to work unless they're getting stock but it sounds like Tesla is drawing the line there because they believe that their stock is valuable and will become much more valuable; employees will have to decide for themselves if they want to risk potentially losing out on getting stocks and weigh if that's valuable enough for them for whatever else the union may or may not be able to negotiate. Arguably, as Elon said, they haven't unionized yet because of that potential loss - but it's not a threat, and arguably the employees are smart enough to decide for themselves.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#307

Post by ScoobleDoodle »

dahfizz wrote: post #277
Jonnax wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's okay for a business to treat employees so badly they find they have to piss in bottles? And it's okay for their official PR twitter account to lie and say it doesn't happen? But it's not okay that a politician says they're going to do something about it?

I would expect more nuance from an HN reader. It's possible for both amazon and warren to be in the wrong.

But in this case the Amazon Twitter account is in the wrong while Warren is in the right. Amazon Twitter straight up lied. Warren is actively doing the job she was elected to do of motivating change to make laws and rules that will change the underlying foundation of the business landscape in ways that she and those who voted for her perceive as positive.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#308

Post by mellosouls »

aborsy wrote: post #199
vincnetas wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? Because for me, working in scandinavia, unions looked quite useful and reasonable.

I had this naive image in mind that unions are labor activists mobilizing against exploitative corporate practices. What I witnessed opened my eyes to the realities on ground, that seemed like almost opposite. As usual, life is more complicated! * The objective of trade unions is not to protect workers and improve their conditions (at least directly). It’s to protect themselves. * In every organization, there exists…

I actually read your comment in good faith expecting to see some actual union-specific critiques, but it is just an absurdly biased caricature of the very worst of people and motives who exist in every type of organisation.

Having read it, I now don't believe for one minute you "had a naive image in mind" before or "opened your eyes" after your experience.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#309

Post by door100 »

aborsy wrote: post #134

Working in France completely changed my view of unions. I sure hope the horrors I saw won’t happen to Tesla.

The horrors of... a 35 hour workweek, 5 weeks paid vacation, 16 weeks paid maternity leave, universal healthcare, and no at-will employment?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#310

Post by loceng »

pmorici wrote: post #295

Calling this tweet "anti-union" seems like spin. It is pointing out facts that one might want to consider before deciding to unionize. The fact that employees lose stock options when they unionize isn't so much a threat as it is a fact about how unions work because historically unions are against any kind of incentive or merit pay so they refuse options as compensation. It is a fact that UAW hasn't negotiated options…

Try explaining that to the people downvoting and commenting where I point this out - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26602600
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