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The Drivers Cooperative

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Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#101

Post by nabla9 »

aaxa wrote: post #95
nabla9 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

App provides value, global brand has some value. There is absolutely no reason for ride hailing app to get 10-20% markup per ride. I suspect that after the competition really kicks in, Uber/Lyft must settle for 1-3% per ride or less.

You could say the same with Just-Eat. In Denmark, I know they have a markup up to 15%, even though they have a lot of competition. So honestly, I am a bit sceptical if we will see a much lower markup. One might hope though.

The dot-com bubble 1995-2000 included multiple delivery service companies.

kozmo.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozmo.com

Webvan was once valued $4.8 billion.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#102

Post by m_ke »

Here’s a recent interview with them https://youtu.be/VykTBPKwYnA

I’ve been considering starting a software coop to build open source versions of these middleman gig work services for a while. Would anyone on here be interested in joining one?

With so many well paid engineers I’m also surprised that there’s not more coop based tech startups in the states.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#103

Post by beefield »

pydry wrote: post #60
beefield wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in my opinion rate parity agreements should be illegal in the first place, as they foster rent seeking behaviour as opposed to fair competition. And if a few large chains drop out of these household names and welcome all small hotels to their coop with fair terms, I fail to see how that would be NPV negative move even if it took a couple of months to readjust for SEO. Price fixing? Just found a couple of compet…

This mirrors the clauses VISA/MasterCard have that say that shops can't charge different prices for credit cards and cash which also solidifies rent seeking behavior. I wonder if you could create a similar law for both.

Funniest is that nowadays card payments are likely cheaper to process for merchants than cash - if you account properly for all costs. So credit card companies should start lobbying to allow different pricing based on payment methods.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#104

Post by fractionalhare »

ethanbond wrote: post #96
jasode wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. It's only the surface-level of an ride-hailing app that seems easy for worker-owned cooperatives to create. In reality, the extra expensive programming dollars required to tame the hidden complexity so that the app can present a seamless experience to the customers/passengers is a huge factor that works ag…

That Uber eng comment reads like list of features and approaches that are necessitated by an overstaffed engineering department than stuff that necessitates it. Yeah if you have 40-50 (!!) “product teams” fiddling with the Rider app, it’ll get complex and sure it’s impressive it works. But uh... why are there 40-50 product teams working on the Rider app?

Did we read the same comment? They all look like useful features which deal with the complexity of things external to Uber (like regional payment regulations).

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#105

Post by IgorPartola »

tzs wrote: post #100
jasode wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. It's only the surface-level of an ride-hailing app that seems easy for worker-owned cooperatives to create. In reality, the extra expensive programming dollars required to tame the hidden complexity so that the app can present a seamless experience to the customers/passengers is a huge factor that works ag…

The overwhelming vast majority of reasons I've heard people give for preferring Uber/Lyft over regular taxis are (1) regular taxis could not be summoned via an app or web page, instead requiring a phone call or curbside hailing, and (2) their credit card terminals were often broken so that you had to pay cash. Both of those specific problem are solvable for most rides without going anywhere near the level of complexi…

There was one more reason: Uber debuted in NYC. NYC has a limited number of taxi medallions and therefore a limited number of taxis which is a problem because demand outpaced supply. Uber provided additional drivers/vehicles. Also initially it paid better while taxi medallions were no longer owned by the drivers but rather by what amounted to wage-slave owners. As a result some people felt it was better to support this nee gig economy as it put more money into the pockets of drivers. Oh and did I mention it was slightly cheaper than equivalent yellow cab rides because it was VC subsidized? Turns out when you sell dollar bills for 90 cents you can get loads of customers.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#106

Post by beefield »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #63
beefield wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in my opinion rate parity agreements should be illegal in the first place, as they foster rent seeking behaviour as opposed to fair competition. And if a few large chains drop out of these household names and welcome all small hotels to their coop with fair terms, I fail to see how that would be NPV negative move even if it took a couple of months to readjust for SEO. Price fixing? Just found a couple of compet…

Having worked for a company with a similar model, the problem with not having rate parity is that companies will then use your site for lead generation but encourage people to book directly. Also, the industry I was in had more transparent pricing than is typical in hotels so the client would often realise they had been made to pay extra for using the intermediary and leave bad reviews about the price discrepancy. So…

> companies will then use your site for lead generation but encourage people to book directly

Of course. That would be the whole point. In that case the OTAs would need to start figuring out how to actually produce value to both end customers and hotels instead of just rent seeking.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#107

Post by fractionalhare »

88 wrote: post #80
jasode wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. It's only the surface-level of an ride-hailing app that seems easy for worker-owned cooperatives to create. In reality, the extra expensive programming dollars required to tame the hidden complexity so that the app can present a seamless experience to the customers/passengers is a huge factor that works ag…

Let’s not pretend back-end taxi/private hire vehicle dispatch is either a complex problem, or one that Uber solved themselves. They added a glossy mobile app to the equation. Many others have since done the same. Driver co-ops or smaller operators simply don’t need to worry about half the nonsense in the comment you linked (support for dozens of languages and payment methods, integration with other first or third par…

The commenter is not saying literal taxi dispatch is complicated. But that's an extremely reductive view of what Uber is.

Their actual point is 1) that it's a complex problem to make it a programmatic market which functions nationally (even internationally) and 2) that such a product will naturally have a feature and convenience advantage over regional-specific, capital-constrained alternatives.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#108

Post by vmateixeira »

aaxa wrote: post #95
nabla9 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

App provides value, global brand has some value. There is absolutely no reason for ride hailing app to get 10-20% markup per ride. I suspect that after the competition really kicks in, Uber/Lyft must settle for 1-3% per ride or less.

You could say the same with Just-Eat. In Denmark, I know they have a markup up to 15%, even though they have a lot of competition. So honestly, I am a bit sceptical if we will see a much lower markup. One might hope though.

In the UK, JustEat takes 30% of the order, same as UberEats, with 0 liability - if something goes wrong with the order, including problems with delivery time, driver taking a nibble, the restaurant just doesn't get paid. Deliveroo is a bit greedier and takes 35%.

It's definitely not the lack of competition... it's just that the competition doesn't behave much better compared to them.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#109

Post by TulliusCicero »

psoots wrote: post #85
jasode wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. It's only the surface-level of an ride-hailing app that seems easy for worker-owned cooperatives to create. In reality, the extra expensive programming dollars required to tame the hidden complexity so that the app can present a seamless experience to the customers/passengers is a huge factor that works ag…

You're making some assumptions. Why can't programmers be workers in the coop and be part of the equation? Why can't forms of capital available to other startups be available to coops?

Hmm, they probably could be. But it may be difficult to recruit and retain good ones. Coops tend to have a compressed salary spectrum, which is good for lower wage workers like taco drivers, and bad for higher wage workers like programmers.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#110

Post by Miner49er »

foepys wrote: post #87
gher-shyu3i wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software is one of the least capital intensive industry I can think of Software runs on hardware, and it's not cheap.

Everytime I hear this, I have to laugh. Setting up a car workshop, carpenter workshop, a bakery, a hair salon etc. will set you back a few ten if not hundred thousand dollars for equipment and/or inventory alone. Meanwhile you can rent servers for low double digits dollars a month and a decent laptop costs $2,000. The only thing expensive about software development is labor cost. Hardware is ridiculously cheap compar…

For programming one can do fine with much cheaper then a $2k laptop.
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