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The Drivers Cooperative

drivers.coop

81–90 of 333 posts

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#81

Wow, I wonder how do they manage to cover the expenses of running a tech startup? We know that software business is capital and intellectual property heavy. How do these people do it?

This is such an odd comment. What industries/businesses are you comparing with? Software is one of the least capital intensive industry I can think of. Similar for intellectual property, I mean what important IP is in building a website or a mobile app? That's why the industry is so focused on growing as quick as possible IMO, because everyone could essentially build your service, it's all about building so much mome…

> Software is one of the least capital intensive industry I can think of

Software runs on hardware, and it's not cheap.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#82
I wonder how this would influence autonomous taxi services.

Maybe there is a financial possibility to finance retraining of drivers while the industry shifts to autonomous rides in the future. This would ease adoption while not discarding drivers as disposable resources.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#83

In Germany we have some really large organizations that are organized as cooperatives (Genossenschaften), e.g. banks (Volksbanken/Raiffeisenbanken) but also tech companies like DATEV eG that build software for their members (tax accountants in that case) and make close to 1 BN€ in revenue. So it can work.

DATEV feels like a government apparatus straight from the 80ies though, I don't think that's a good example. It's slow and expensive, feels very bureaucratic.

A good example are housing coops though. They work rather efficiently, have not turned into bureaucratic monsters, and provide housing to their members at sub-market rates (at least in the larger cities), while still being profitable and usually paying ~4% as a dividend.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#84
post #78
post #15

I hope this takes off. Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. I would gladly (and will try to next time I'm in NYC) use this service over Uber or Lyft. Power to the drivers!

>Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. It's only the surface-level of an ride-hailing app that seems easy for worker-owned cooperatives to create. In reality, the extra expensive programming dollars required to tame the hidden complexity so that the app can present a seamless experience to the customers/passengers is a huge factor that works ag…

>present a seamless experience to the customers/passengers

There does exist a segment of users who are willing to navigate a less-than-seamless experience if that lets them avoid dealing with a less-than-ethical business. (And probably there's at least some PR effort involved in making their voices not count.)

Besides, the Uber/Lyft experience is far from "seamless", and developing a ride-sharing app that does _not_ aim to work on a global scale has different challenges from those outlined in that post.

>But a high-tech complexity business that's expensive to build is inherently too costly for a pool of drivers' savings to fund.

>Whenever you see "worker-owned", mentally substitute "capital-constrained" -- and it starts to make sense why many businesses domains don't have any coops rising up to compete with VC-fueled startups.

My favorite conspiracy theory is that VC is poured into software not to produce meaningful innovation, but chiefly to hypercomplicate the field in a sort of Cambrian explosion, so that the "capital-constrained" can't get anything done with the baroque frameworks and out-of-touch developers that the ecosystem produces.

Thankfully, people who understand how a computer works (and what it's good for) do exist outside of SV. Sometimes (shhh!) they're even motivated by other things besides short-term capital accumulation!

And better ethics can mean better efficiency - fewer politically driven kludges in software, less staff turnover, even the fact that people can and do accept to get paid a more average salary in exchange for working at a place that isn't screwing people over at industrial fucking scale.

That's how a cooperative can compete with a megacorpo, although realistically a more reasonable first goal would be to coexist in the same markets, or operate in markets that have demand but are deemed insufficiently profitable for the corp.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#85
post #78
post #15

I hope this takes off. Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. I would gladly (and will try to next time I'm in NYC) use this service over Uber or Lyft. Power to the drivers!

>Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. It's only the surface-level of an ride-hailing app that seems easy for worker-owned cooperatives to create. In reality, the extra expensive programming dollars required to tame the hidden complexity so that the app can present a seamless experience to the customers/passengers is a huge factor that works ag…

You're making some assumptions. Why can't programmers be workers in the coop and be part of the equation? Why can't forms of capital available to other startups be available to coops?

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#86

> While Uber and Lyft make their money for Wall Street and Silicon Valley investors, we will be a co-operative. So any profits will go back to the drivers. Can't they set it up as a non-profit? What almost always happens in these cases is that most of shares are owned by the first few workers, and ultimately a small group will control the whole business (at which point they will obviously won't drive for the app anym…

I've read several books on cooperatives including case studies on how fail and I've never heard this. Do you have some examples of where this was an issue? One common issue I have heard about is early members acquiring disproportionate social capital, but that's a different problem with different solutions.

[deleted]

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an odd comment. What industries/businesses are you comparing with? Software is one of the least capital intensive industry I can think of. Similar for intellectual property, I mean what important IP is in building a website or a mobile app? That's why the industry is so focused on growing as quick as possible IMO, because everyone could essentially build your service, it's all about building so much mome…

> Software is one of the least capital intensive industry I can think of Software runs on hardware, and it's not cheap.

Everytime I hear this, I have to laugh. Setting up a car workshop, carpenter workshop, a bakery, a hair salon etc. will set you back a few ten if not hundred thousand dollars for equipment and/or inventory alone. Meanwhile you can rent servers for low double digits dollars a month and a decent laptop costs $2,000.

The only thing expensive about software development is labor cost. Hardware is ridiculously cheap compared to any other profession.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#88
post #78
post #15

I hope this takes off. Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. I would gladly (and will try to next time I'm in NYC) use this service over Uber or Lyft. Power to the drivers!

>Ride-hailing apps always seemed like a model that was extremely conducive to a cooperative, worker-owned model. It's only the surface-level of an ride-hailing app that seems easy for worker-owned cooperatives to create. In reality, the extra expensive programming dollars required to tame the hidden complexity so that the app can present a seamless experience to the customers/passengers is a huge factor that works ag…

Arcade City (the other driver co-op from Austin) is still going strong though. They’re actively working on v5 of their app. https://arcade.city/

They are more of a free tool to allow drivers in each city to create co-ops though, rather than one specific co-op.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#89
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in my opinion rate parity agreements should be illegal in the first place, as they foster rent seeking behaviour as opposed to fair competition. And if a few large chains drop out of these household names and welcome all small hotels to their coop with fair terms, I fail to see how that would be NPV negative move even if it took a couple of months to readjust for SEO. Price fixing? Just found a couple of compet…

This mirrors the clauses VISA/MasterCard have that say that shops can't charge different prices for credit cards and cash which also solidifies rent seeking behavior. I wonder if you could create a similar law for both.

This one is very frustrating. If anything it should be obligatory to make payment processor fee to be a separate item. This way we would have fair competition with consumers choosing the cheapest/most convenient option.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative

#90
post #79

This is doubly ironic and amusing if you think about how Uber/Lyft were "disrupting" the existing markets. Well, market forces are at work: if Uber/Lyft provide no additional value over drivers' work (and treat drivers as disposable assets), they themselves will get "disrupted" and the drivers will get rid of them :-) Happy to see this happening, and I wonder how this will develop.

Uber provides discoverbility, ratings and a feeling of safety.
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