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Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

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Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#241
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. >Depressed people should seek treatment. Being depressed doesn't excuse manipulation. I've been on the receiving end of that same situation; and yet, I don't think inciting an internet hate mob to banish that person from their life's work indefinitely is the proper "treatment" I'd recommend to give that person.

Again, mental health doesn't excuse domestic abuse.

What makes you think I said it did?

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#242
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about all the women who have come forward, talking about what a massive creep he is? This isn't about some technicality about what he said, but a culmination of 30 years of horrible behavior. It takes trivial research (check Twitter) for the many personal accounts from women who will never get close to him, and have been driven from the industry by both him and the people who have protected him.

What are the criteria for being a "massive creep"? Future board members, start taking notes!

I dunno, but he definitely passed:

https://mobile.twitter.com/bella_velo/status/117252486419394...

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#243
post #44

I believe there is a significant chilling effect in regards to speaking out in the defense of Richard Stallman, a man who has never been convicted of a crime, and who in response to the allegations in the open letter has said things such as: "We know that Giuffre was being coerced into sex – by Epstein. She was being harmed," "Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a c…

What about all the women who have come forward, talking about what a massive creep he is? This isn't about some technicality about what he said, but a culmination of 30 years of horrible behavior. It takes trivial research (check Twitter) for the many personal accounts from women who will never get close to him, and have been driven from the industry by both him and the people who have protected him.

He’s a massive creep. I saw him speak in Copenhagen once, and he was eating his toenails during the talk.

Later he couch bummed on the professors couch instead of staying at a hotel and the horrible experience of having him as a “guest” is still the key story at every Christmas party.

I don’t want to defend him. I think he’s an idiot, but I also don’t think he’s pro-pedo. I mean, you have to be an absolute fool to write what he did, but his point was clearly just to say “maybe mr scumbag didn’t know the 17 year old hooker was forced”. As autistic and unnecessary as that is, it’s not exactly being a pro-pedo.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#244

I'll be honest here, I dislike the cancel culture with passion. When an angry mob tries to cancel a person there are 3 things that bothers me: 1. The cancellers are judging the past actions of a person with today's values, and are judging the past version of the person as if such person hadn't had already the chance to reflect on their past actions, accept their mistakes and become a better person. 2. The cancellers…

Dislike with passion? There are words for that: hate, despise, disdain, detest. "Darling, I like you with passion." Innocent errors of diction are de minimis; tiptoeing heresy emboldens orthodox bigotry.

There are other words like disapproval or concern.

Example:

  82 percent of Americans agree that hate speech is a problem in America today
  but 80 percent also view political correctness as an issue.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a70a7c3010027736a227...

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a good faith disagreement with Stallman, and I'll show you something so minor as to not justify ousting a man from his job, let alone an entire Board. In fact, in most cases I'll show you one side that doesn't try to actively foist their viewpoint on others, but instead invites the other side to come to their own conclusion. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader as to which is which.

I support RMS and have been an FSF member for north of a decade. A substantial disagreement I have with him over the GPL is whether we can call propeietary licenses "immoral". Taking the libertarian view, I would offer that two people sharing a proprietary licensing agreement is as much my business as them consensually sharing bodily fluids. The FSF tends toward intolerance as it gazes out from its "monastic" abode.…

> proprietary licensing agreements + a broader anti-freedom assault

sure lets go full tinfoil hat ^^

I agree with your ideal of the freedom of contract in principle, but that only exists between equals. Wage slaves sign away exclusive rights to megacorporations and those do not negotiate licensing contracts with individual human consumers either. The contracts on both ends of the value chain are dictated by the corporation. Take it or leave it. Between the workers and the consumers a "right to reverse engineer" or a "right to repair" could be agreeable, but business is not going to let that happen. It will instead pressure any workers union to sign away all intellectual property rights the law allows and agree with denying the consumers every right that can be denied, arguing only then slave wages can match bread prices and every bit of idealism is going to take away from that.

So this is big tech trying to get rid of all the counter-culture ideologues so the FOSS communities can be ruled by docile councils of pushovers that offer no resistance against turning FOSS into feature incomplete community editions packed with telemetry and designed to harvest free work from young people eager to raise the value of their curriculum vitae. And even better all those undergrad engineers learn to keep their mouth shut, fall in line and never dare to argue against the social contract. Perfect mindset to get into negotiations for a wage slave position with corporate. Their ideal "community edition community" is not lead by radical free thinkers and it is not inclusive but instead managed by people who studied social science and are willing to sell out for scraps, the power to shush others and an idiotic believe that they in some way are helping to improve humanity by furthering the gleichschaltung of all aspects of culture and community into one big gamified social scoring system, when in truth all they do is crack the whip on the galley of totalitarian surveillance capitalism.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brave only exists because Mozilla fired eich for some donations he made to an anti gay-marriage group, iirc. I really dislike the donation he made, but firing people for their legal personal political behaviour is like poison to a free society

Eich wasn't fired. He resigned because people didn't want to follow him.

You don’t speak for me, so why are you writing “He resigned because” here?

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#247

I'll be honest here, I dislike the cancel culture with passion. When an angry mob tries to cancel a person there are 3 things that bothers me: 1. The cancellers are judging the past actions of a person with today's values, and are judging the past version of the person as if such person hadn't had already the chance to reflect on their past actions, accept their mistakes and become a better person. 2. The cancellers…

> 1. The cancellers are judging the past actions of a person with today's values, and are judging the past version of the person as if such person hadn't had already the chance to reflect on their past actions, accept their mistakes and become a better person.

That would make sense for someone judging the Mongols for conquering half of Eurasia. For someone judging sexual harassment and/or rape, when would you draw the line when "today's values" weren't applicable with regards to sexual harassment and/or rape? Like, take Andrew Cuomo or Harvey Weinstein. Is what many people are alleging they did fine because it was some time ago?

And of course there are "cancellings" ( i hate that terminology...) for current actions, like LGBTQ-phobia, or the Q lunatics.

I absolutely agree that "doing blackface" at a college party 30 years ago isn't really relevant to who a person is today.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a very liberal person, I have to say that I am disgusted by cancel culture. Are you using the non-American and leftist American definition of “liberal” (center-to-center-right capitalist) or the American center-right-to-right definition of “liberal” (anything left of the center-right) when you say “very liberal”? > when I read Stallman's actual comments last year, I thought that it was very clear that he was onl…

> Are you using the non-American and leftist American definition of “liberal” (center-to-center-right capitalist) or the American center-right-to-right definition of “liberal” (anything left of the center-right) when you say “very liberal”? Not sure if it matters, since in both cases it's applicable: 1. From a true liberal (moderate capitalist) standpoint, RMS has every right to his views, and the FSF has every right…

> RMS is pretty unambiguously leftist and libertarian

FYI libertarians nowadays, especially in the US, are basically anarcho-capitalists, and considered right on the political spectrum.

> Left-libertarian[14][15][16][17][18] ideologies include anarchist schools of thought, alongside many other anti-paternalist and New Left schools of thought centered around economic egalitarianism as well as geolibertarianism, green politics, market-oriented left-libertarianism and the Steiner–Vallentyne school.[14][17][19][20][21] In the mid-20th century, right-libertarian[15][18][22][23] proponents of anarcho-capitalism and minarchism co-opted[8][24] the term libertarian to advocate laissez-faire capitalism and strong private property rights such as in land, infrastructure and natural resources.[25] The latter is the dominant form of libertarianism in the United States,[23] where it advocates civil liberties,[26] natural law,[27] free-market capitalism[28][29] and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.[30]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

RMS himself is very anti-libertarians in their US form ( right-libertarian in the Wiki article):

https://stallman.org/glossary.html#anti

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#249
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you using the non-American and leftist American definition of “liberal” (center-to-center-right capitalist) or the American center-right-to-right definition of “liberal” (anything left of the center-right) when you say “very liberal”? Not sure if it matters, since in both cases it's applicable: 1. From a true liberal (moderate capitalist) standpoint, RMS has every right to his views, and the FSF has every right…

> RMS is pretty unambiguously leftist and libertarian FYI libertarians nowadays, especially in the US, are basically anarcho-capitalists, and considered right on the political spectrum. > Left-libertarian[14][15][16][17][18] ideologies include anarchist schools of thought, alongside many other anti-paternalist and New Left schools of thought centered around economic egalitarianism as well as geolibertarianism, green…

Yes, I am very much aware (myself being a libertarian - in the actual sense, rather than the perverted "freedom is when capitalism" / "socialism is when government" sense).

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#250
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the criteria for being a "massive creep"? Future board members, start taking notes!

I dunno, but he definitely passed: https://mobile.twitter.com/bella_velo/status/117252486419394...

A vanity business card from 1988 that uses the phrase "tender embraces," which was intended to be self-deprecating as he has never been "conventionally attractive," is very, very, very weak evidence that predicates he's a "serial harasser" of women.
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