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What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

writings.stephenwolfram.com

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Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's precisely the problem - we can't yet formalize the concept we understand as "consciousness", and so any attempts to find a physical/mathematical definition are almost doomed to fail, as they can't really guarantee they are defining the actual concept we have in our minds when we say "consciousness".

My argument is a bit more subtle. I'm saying asking what "consciousness" is like asking "what does it mean to be American." Does it make sense to attempt to find a mathematical definition of "American." No because being American is largely a made up concept. It's a complex category no doubt but it is not fundamental to the structure of the universe. I'm saying "Consciousness" is the same thing. It's an ingrained conc…

To have a complete accounting of the entire universe, we need at some point to have a mathematical model of the human mind and human society. If we did, we could then give a formal definition of "what it means to be American" or "what does seeing green feel like", and indeed "what is consciousness".

Regardless of what you think the mind is (if you believe, like me, that it is fundamentally a physical computer, or if you believe it is something else entirely), our picture of the universe is never going to be satisfactory until we can account for how we integrate with it. So yes, for every made up human notion, there needs to be some way to physically define that human notion, if we had a physical model of the human mind (even if that definition is as simple as "an illusion caused by such and such series of events").

It may well be that consciousness is not a fundamental concept in the sense that it is a uniquely human illusion, not something that could not be properly extended to non-human agents. But even if that is true, it doesn't mean that there can't be a precise definition of how the feeling of consciousness arises in humans, what properties of our minds make us think that we have this property and that it is important.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#92
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> debating what "life" is as a general concept outside of biology is not a profound issue I'm not sure this is true. I think I disagree with much of your neat frame-setting here. For example, some of my favourite recent podcasts from complexity science involve clever folks like Sara Imari Walker discussing "life" as what emerges from a dense information well.[1] These questions are not just simple inventories. But ye…

>Walker discussing "life" as what emerges from a dense information well This is still a language thing. Nothing new is uncovered here. All Walker did is imbue complexity onto a vocabulary word. No new information was introduced. The profoundness is an illusion.

I'm grateful for the reply :) I respectfully disagree. You have me asking myself why though. I'm thinking about this quote by Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes:

"For the simplicity that lies this side of complexity, I would not give a fig, but for the simplicity that lies on the other side of complexity, I would give my life."[1]

I'm also thinking about Copernicus and how people were actually modelling planetary motion in workable ways before him, though perhaps with a few more variables.

Lastly, I'm thinking of "Object-Oriented Ontology: A New Theory of Everything", by Graham Harman. I don't subscribe to it fully, but it raises a case for how a truly explanatory theory of our universe MUST encompass fiction and metaphor and language as "real". So if true, then physics must have explanatory power over what happens in language. So I really don't vibe with the downplay of "just a language spin for the same thing", because new terms/framings are crucial to the ecology of science/tech/progress. Discovering "a language thing" is sometimes no less a discovery than finding a new sub-species of toad. The toad is just an instantiation of information in a different substrate, if you get my drift :) a dense network of biochemical interactions vs a distributed network of neural interactions. The universe doesn't care that we find one substrate more intuitive and innate (language). The objective universe "sees" each as a manifestation of novel information that self-reinforces and persists its structure through time

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to work through this thought :)

Disclosure: My background is not just tech, but biochemistry: the nitty gritty chemical mechanics of life. I'm wondering if this gives me different context on how important Imari's discovery of these new framings and models.

[1]: http://www.jonkolko.com/writingSimplicityComplexity.php#brea...

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much are you willing to bet that consciousness is not a computation? What else could it be? If we don't live in a world organized by physics and causality, then it would extremely unlikely life could even emerge altogether. The fact that the world is ultimately predictable makes it more likely we emerge, not less.

What do you define as "a computation"? If water runs down a hill following a windy path to the lowest point, is there any computation happening as it "chooses" its way? If you throw a ball up, is there any computation as it "decides" when to turn around and fall down? If a mirror reflects light rays, is it computing anything as it does so? When a fire burns, is there computation in its flames? When you drop string an…

To your first 4 paragraphs, you jump around alot to many different points. But I think I can best concisely illustrate that you and I are not working with the same basic semantics. For instance, I have definitely grown plants with simulated water in a Zelda game.

I think when you here computation, you should learn more about quantum mechanics and how systems are describe in terms of discrete pieces of information. As it is, we can implant electrodes in human brains and send artificial signals to them already and people begin to "see" things that are not there.

How does saying thinking is just a form of computation taking it away from brains? Why does thinking have to be something different from just running probability calculations given the current input and the likely next step including for a given output we can take upon given "input"? It seems that for you that the possibility is entirely out of the realm of possibility. It's not that thinking can't be explained by computation, it's that is must NOT be explained by computation.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#94
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I encounter someone trying to tell me that consciousness is ill-defined or not a real thing that actually exists (which happens surprisingly often), I feel like I’m taking crazy pills - or perhaps that philosophical zombies walk among us. Not only am I 100% sure that (my) consciousness exists, it’s literally the only thing I can be 100% sure exists.

I was about to debate your point. I decided to flag you instead. > I feel like I’m taking crazy pills - or perhaps that philosophical zombies walk among us. Basically the above is an insult. Essentially you're calling me and anyone with a differing opinion then you "crazy" or a walking philosophical zombie. Literally you're just trying to get around a technicality by indirectly labeling me. Might as well just say "Re…

Consciousness is something that is directly observed. In fact, it is perhaps the most directly observed of all phenomena. The problem lies in deciding how to think about it, and how to speak of it.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is a bit more subtle. I'm saying asking what "consciousness" is like asking "what does it mean to be American." Does it make sense to attempt to find a mathematical definition of "American." No because being American is largely a made up concept. It's a complex category no doubt but it is not fundamental to the structure of the universe. I'm saying "Consciousness" is the same thing. It's an ingrained conc…

To have a complete accounting of the entire universe, we need at some point to have a mathematical model of the human mind and human society. If we did, we could then give a formal definition of "what it means to be American" or "what does seeing green feel like", and indeed "what is consciousness". Regardless of what you think the mind is (if you believe, like me, that it is fundamentally a physical computer, or if…

>But even if that is true, it doesn't mean that there can't be a precise definition of how the feeling of consciousness arises in humans,

You could say this about "American" as well. Trying to pinpoint the formal definition of "American" is likely possible but also completely pointless because it's an arbitrary made up concept. Just like consciousness.

As a user of the word. You don't even know what it means. All you know is that when you look at something, your brain automatically tells you what is conscious and what is not. Your brain does the same thing with "American." Attempting to formalize this category is pointless.

>what properties of our minds make us think that we have this property and that it is important.

The property in your mind that does this is the same property that effects the word "American." It is the recursive nature of consciousness along with the ambiguity of the category that imprints the word with a false sense of importance.

The reality is, consciousness is simply a line of demarcation between calculator and computer or bug and human. Somewhere there is a boundary where we classify something as conscious or not conscious. What's actually going on is a gradient, and the hard boundary is made up by humans. There is little fundamental importance where you place this boundary at all.

For example are humans more conscious than a bug? Is a bug more conscious than a Machine learning AI? Is a machine learning AI more conscious than a calculator. There is very little importance in how you answer these questions. If an AI is more conscious than a calculator... so what? You arbitrarily defined your boundary to be there. You can arbitrarily define it to be anywhere you want, technically.

The search for what "consciousness" means is essentially just looking for where our brains have collectively chosen to draw this line of demarcation. It is searching for an arbitrary property that is essentially made up by the human condition.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#97
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Walker discussing "life" as what emerges from a dense information well This is still a language thing. Nothing new is uncovered here. All Walker did is imbue complexity onto a vocabulary word. No new information was introduced. The profoundness is an illusion.

I'm grateful for the reply :) I respectfully disagree. You have me asking myself why though. I'm thinking about this quote by Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes: "For the simplicity that lies this side of complexity, I would not give a fig, but for the simplicity that lies on the other side of complexity, I would give my life." [1] I'm also thinking about Copernicus and how people were actually modelling pla…

>So I really don't vibe with the downplay of "just a language spin for the same thing", because new terms/framings are crucial to the ecology of science/tech/progress. Discovering "a language thing" is sometimes no less a discovery than finding a new sub-species of toad. The toad is just an instantiation of information in a different substrate, if you get my drift

This sentence is in itself wordplay. You are aware of the differences between the toad and the toad subspecies. To imbue both with a different word is a separate thing disconnected from the actual differences.

Words that encompass categories may help us humans understand things, but these are just tools for us to understand certain things, they do not change reality itself.

In fact words can create illusions of categories that don't exist from certain perspectives. For example what does it mean to be "American." It's a complex word with a complex category but largely pointless in the grand universal scheme of things. The category only exists because humans formed out pure chance a country called America out of all the possible countries and empires that could have existed.

I'm saying consciousness is the same thing. It's as arbitrary as asking what it means to be American. Now it may not feel this way but humans are born with large consistent biases that are very hard to remove. Almost all cultures believe in the concept of gods even though scientifically the concept is arbitrary. My claim is that consciousness is a similar thing. It is an illusion.

You do not actually know what the word consciousness means. You just know when something belongs in the consciousness category and when it does not. Much of the question is to find out what the algorithm is actually doing in your head. I think this endeavor is pointless because the algorithm is arbitrary. Whether you consider an ant to be consciousness or not based off certain qualities is uninteresting and arbitrary.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was about to debate your point. I decided to flag you instead. > I feel like I’m taking crazy pills - or perhaps that philosophical zombies walk among us. Basically the above is an insult. Essentially you're calling me and anyone with a differing opinion then you "crazy" or a walking philosophical zombie. Literally you're just trying to get around a technicality by indirectly labeling me. Might as well just say "Re…

Consciousness is something that is directly observed. In fact, it is perhaps the most directly observed of all phenomena. The problem lies in deciding how to think about it, and how to speak of it.

So? it's still pointless. Gender is observed to. Is it interesting to discuss all the possible gender categories that can exist? No because a lot of these gender categories were made up in the last decade.

I am saying consciousness is just an arbitrary category for an arbitrary set of phenomena. Trying to codify this arbitrary category is like trying to codify what it means to be American, or what it means to be Trans or whatever. It's Pointless because the complexity within these categories are purely made up.

I'm saying consciousness is the same thing. Is an Ant conscious? Well it depends on your arbitrary classification of what it means to be conscious. And that's the point. It's Arbitrary. It's made up. It's not worth talking about what it is to be American in a scientific paper anymore then it is to talk about what it means to be conscious.

Some may argue that an ant is conscious because it feels pain. Others may argue that consciousness does not involve pain. And if you observe this from a very high level you will see the argument is simply about a definition of an arbitrary word. It is not interesting to debate about vocabulary.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't tell me to fuck off.

Dang. this guy told me to fuck off and I flagged him and you're completely ignoring this?

I'm sorry. Was hoping it was motivational to know oneself better.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#100
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang. this guy told me to fuck off and I flagged him and you're completely ignoring this?

I'm sorry. Was hoping it was motivational to know oneself better.

Mods, You've warned me before to not aggressively respond to attackers and flag them but, ignoring this is wrong. The guy just flagrantly delivered an insult to my face.
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