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What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

writings.stephenwolfram.com

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Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#51

Post by EMM_386 »

vletal wrote: post #42
nahuel0x wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to feel is the core of consciousness/qualia. You can postulate free will as an illusion, but is harder with consciousness.

Exactly. I struggle hard with this topic. I feel like being here, perceiving the world. Yet, if I simulated every molecule of my body, the simulated me would seemingly "feel" the same things, think likewise. It feels there is more to "me" than what would be of the _simulated_ me. On the other hand I see no way to prove so.

> Yet, if I simulated every molecule of my body

This gets into the concept of free will.

If you have free will, then it is your own conscious decisions that are affecting the universe, and not the universe affecting your conscious decisions.

In this scenario, you can't "simulate every molecule" of your body, because that simulation will have to include whether or not you decided to touch that hot stove. And that decision rested solely with you, in your mind.

If we do not have free will, and this whole thing is "on rails", then we are essentially watching an elaborate movie play out that we have no control over.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#52

Post by Layke1123 »

nahuel0x wrote: post #45
Layke1123 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably true. There are things definitely less conscious than us. It'll be interesting if it is possible for us to comprehend higher consciousness or if its like a never ending race to the top. Creatures so intelligent they are just beyond our comprehension.

Intuitively we can postulate the humans are more conscientious than a chicken, and the chicken is more conscientious than a bacteria, and the bacteria (maybe it can "feel" pain) is more conscientious than the thermostat (who probably is not conscientious in any way). But conscience is not really measurable, so, we can't be really sure if a rock is more conscientious than us, or than a fellow human is conscientious at…

Who says? We used to could.not measure light precisely, only vague notions of color. Maybe we are just in a similar state.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#53

Post by Afton »

EMM_386 wrote: post #51
vletal wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I struggle hard with this topic. I feel like being here, perceiving the world. Yet, if I simulated every molecule of my body, the simulated me would seemingly "feel" the same things, think likewise. It feels there is more to "me" than what would be of the _simulated_ me. On the other hand I see no way to prove so.

> Yet, if I simulated every molecule of my body This gets into the concept of free will. If you have free will, then it is your own conscious decisions that are affecting the universe, and not the universe affecting your conscious decisions. In this scenario, you can't "simulate every molecule" of your body, because that simulation will have to include whether or not you decided to touch that hot stove. And that deci…

I don't see how this is related. I subscribe simultaneously to 'qualia is a real problem' and 'free will is an incoherent term'.

I think whether you think a perfect simulation of a person has subjective experiences depends on what you think the substrate of that subjectivity is. If you think of it as a computational property then you'll be inclined to say "no, that simulation is experiencing things". If you think it is some kind of fundamental property of the universe, like pan-psychism, then you'll think the simulation is 'missing' subjectivity. Nothing in there about free will in my thinking.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#54

Post by _y5hn »

neonological wrote: post #13

Careful. "Consciousness" may just be a language issue. It seems like a profound concept but it's really just a word with a very vague and complex definition. If someone tried to formalize "consciousness" it would be a technical book about 1000 pages long or something and all we're doing is debating about what goes in the book. It's very similar to the question what is "life?" I mean we understand that biology is just…

[flagged]

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#55

Post by airhead969 »

The unexplainable: why are you you and cosmogony.

Consciousness seems to be a mostly self-assembling, emergent property of suitably complex learning systems that are capable of abstract pattern matching, modeling, and anticipation. I have a difficult time (intractable) understanding from where you or I come into being as a conscious entity.

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#56

Post by airhead969 »

neonological wrote: post #13

Careful. "Consciousness" may just be a language issue. It seems like a profound concept but it's really just a word with a very vague and complex definition. If someone tried to formalize "consciousness" it would be a technical book about 1000 pages long or something and all we're doing is debating about what goes in the book. It's very similar to the question what is "life?" I mean we understand that biology is just…

English is an awful for scientific communication due to its inherently complex rules and ambiguous lexicon. It's great for marketing and business though!

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#59

Post by dangoljames »

roughly wrote: post #16
neonological wrote: post #13

Careful. "Consciousness" may just be a language issue. It seems like a profound concept but it's really just a word with a very vague and complex definition. If someone tried to formalize "consciousness" it would be a technical book about 1000 pages long or something and all we're doing is debating about what goes in the book. It's very similar to the question what is "life?" I mean we understand that biology is just…

I agree. The ultimate question of consciousness regards the phenomenological experience of being - what is it? Where does it come from? What does it mean about us? Who else shares it? Any theory of consciousness that doesn’t address those questions may indeed be addressing some version of how we might define consciousness, but it’s redefining the mountain from the foothills - justify it all you like, but nobody’s giv…

Before any of THOSE questions can be asked, we first have to arrive at some sort of consensus concerning what constitutes a phenomena...

Re: What is consciousness? Some new perspectives from our physics project

#60

Post by roughly »

matt-attack wrote: post #48
roughly wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The ultimate question of consciousness regards the phenomenological experience of being - what is it? Where does it come from? What does it mean about us? Who else shares it? Any theory of consciousness that doesn’t address those questions may indeed be addressing some version of how we might define consciousness, but it’s redefining the mountain from the foothills - justify it all you like, but nobody’s giv…

> Who else shares it? Or what else shares it?

At the point at which we can determine with certainty something else shares a phenomenological experience of consciousness, I think we're obligated to grant it personhood.
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