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Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

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Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#51

Post by kaba0 »

prox wrote: post #45
rudyfink wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can tell (this is not my field), at least as concerns the English state, the tally stick was divided into the "stock," which was kept by the state, and the "foil," which went with the individual. This video shows a number of examples of stocks (apparently few foils survive) and how they recorded debts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rxAYSXJ41Y . It explains that they were used to record money that was d…

Another old process (ancient?) a teacher of mine once mentioned is that of always having three witnesses to any official transaction (usually one being a Notary to record) and two other people present. Having three people present is a way to protect against he said/she said.

An alternative to blockchains, Corda does something similar instead of the wasteful proof of works.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#52

Post by weinzierl »

dylan604 wrote: post #28
MengerSponge wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banksy does something similar now: https://reprage.com/post/how-banksy-authenticates-his-work

"So Banksy created a not-for-profit company, Pest Control" I now want Banksy to name my future endeavors.

> I now want Banksy to name my future endeavors.

"If you’re thinking of writing in to ask Banksy to paint your sitting room or design your company logo - please don’t."

I guess you are out of luck here, but if you don't mind aiding and abetting the commission of a trespass - maybe you can trade in.

"If you’re thinking of writing in because you have privileged access to a secure facility that needs vandalising - please do."

Quotes from https://pestcontroloffice.com/faq.asp

LEGAL WORDS THAT HAVE TO APPEAR AT THE BOTTOM OF A SUBMISSION

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#54

Post by wisty »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #50
airstrike wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but then things evolved into more sophisticated and less cumbersome methods of ensuring authenticity.

Sophistication and uncumbersomeness (?) are not necessarily good things.

I bet a lot of the advocates of these block chains would claim that the lack of sophistication and cumbersomeness was an advantage.

You'd say things like "if it ever caught on in a big way, what's to stop banks or even governments issuing block-denominated securities, causing inflation? Would people put blocks in banks for safe-keeping, where they'd just end up recreating the fractional reserve system you claim these blocks avoid?".

And advocates would say "no, that won't happen, people would like to keep a hold of their own blocks, no-one would want an IOU from a bank if they could physically hold their very own block instead".

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#55

Post by maxerickson »

cossray wrote: post #22
rudyfink wrote: post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

Is the phrase,"get short end of the stick" originate from this?

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/end-of-the-stick.html has some thoughts.

I like the horse answer at https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/67813/origin-of-... whether it is true or not.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#56

Post by 1_player »

natch wrote: post #19

Thousands of years ago in ancient China they used chopped segments of bamboo for authentication purposes as well. They would chop a bundle of stalks into two bundles, and one bundle would be held by a (regional) king and distributed to key checkpoints. Then they gave the other, matching, bundle to another kingdom with whom they wanted to communicate. Later when a messenger wanted to bring a message past a guard stati…

It also was a practice in European medieval history, and at least until 1837: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DkyahZplFo

Apparently we've been doing notched sticks since the Paleolithic age.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#57

Post by SamBam »

a_t48 wrote: post #41
SamBam wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract. If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the or…

Let's say we cut notches perpedicular to where the split will be, and then split through the notches. If you cut more notches in your side of the wood, it will be obvious that you've done so - the two sides will fit together perfectly in shape and in grain, but one side will have extra notches. It's not like I could have filled in the notches on my piece.

Right. That's what I said in my middle paragraph.

But if I simply throw away my half and make a new half, a court will have no way of knowing which was the original. (Unless each half was signed by both parties.)

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#59

Post by eigenket »

cybert00th wrote: post #58

The more we look, the more we learn. If that's one thing we can learn from modern archaeological methods, it's that past generations had their own levels of sophistication and advancement, and we'd be wise to remember this

Yeah, humans haven't really changed very much biologically in the last 100000 years or so. Its often easy to think that advanced problem solving abilities are relatively modern, but theres not really any reason to think you or I are smarter than someone 50k years ago.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#60

Post by [deleted] »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #38
cossray wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the phrase,"get short end of the stick" originate from this?

This is a (modern, mistaken) conjoining of two similar phrases - drawing the short stick (where you hold five sticks / matches, in your hand one of which is cut short but no one can tell cos they are held in someone's hand) - Grabbing the shitty end of the stick. Which seems fairly obvious if a stick was used for any clearing out style work. (there seems to be no obvious "short end" of a stick)

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