Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
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Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
#2As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock."
In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is apparently it.
Second aside, 100s of years of such wooden stocks were stored in the British Houses of Parliament. They were ordered cleaned out, but, apparently the cleaners got over zealous, and the stocks caught on fire with disastrous results.
Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
#3As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…
I’ve never understood - what do you do if the tally sticks don’t match? You just know there’s a dispute but it doesn’t resolve the dispute does it? So what next?
Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
#4As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…
So these non-fungible blocks that proved you had a stake... could you maybe trace back the transaction history for a piece of property using some kind of chain of these blocks?
Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
#5As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…
I’ve never understood - what do you do if the tally sticks don’t match? You just know there’s a dispute but it doesn’t resolve the dispute does it? So what next?
You tell them to f off? Its like asking what happens when you're handed a bill that is clearly counterfeit
Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
#6Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’ve never understood - what do you do if the tally sticks don’t match? You just know there’s a dispute but it doesn’t resolve the dispute does it? So what next?
You tell them to f off? Its like asking what happens when you're handed a bill that is clearly counterfeit
That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract.
If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the original?
Presumably they had some way to sign them? After all, that's why both parties sign both contracts today. If you go change yours, I still have your signature on mine.
Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
#7As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…
So these non-fungible blocks that proved you had a stake... could you maybe trace back the transaction history for a piece of property using some kind of chain of these blocks?
Yes, but then things evolved into more sophisticated and less cumbersome methods of ensuring authenticity.
Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
#8As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…
I’ve never understood - what do you do if the tally sticks don’t match? You just know there’s a dispute but it doesn’t resolve the dispute does it? So what next?
From what I can tell (this is not my field), at least as concerns the English state, the tally stick was divided into the "stock," which was kept by the state, and the "foil," which went with the individual.
This video shows a number of examples of stocks (apparently few foils survive) and how they recorded debts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rxAYSXJ41Y .
It explains that they were used to record money that was deposited, essentially a receipt, by removing wood from the then original stick before it was split into the stock/foil. My guess (again not my area) is that it primarily functioned this way:
1. The removed wood representing the debt. I have no confirmation, but I would expect the stock/foil was created in view of the depositor who understood its markings.
2. The entity seeking repayment would not be able to fake their receipt, presumably to indicate they had deposited more money than they had (i.e., by removing wood from their foil). If they tried, the stock would still have that wood present, but the other grooves and grain of the stock/foil would align. The state would easily be able to tell that someone had subtracted wood from their foil.
3. The state could, of course, destroy the stock and claim its nonexistence, but information of that would, presumably, escape and others would be less likely to lend to the state. It appears there is writing on the stock/foil, so perhaps that served a secondary verification function (e.g., handwriting comparison or reference to a paper ledger)?
[EDIT: The process of making English tallies was laid out in the "The Dialogue Concerning the Exchequer. circa 1180" (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/medieval/excheq.asp. It describes making these tally sticks in the section "As to the Maker of Tallies." Unfortunately, I do not see the details of dispute resolution in that document. But, I only skimmed it.]
Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
You tell them to f off? Its like asking what happens when you're handed a bill that is clearly counterfeit
That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract. If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the or…
You could split wood more than 2 ways, then register one of the pieces. Or a system of splitting multiple pieces of wood, leaving some for registration. No idea if this is what anyone has done.
Signing makes sense.
Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years
#10Earlier quoted context omitted.
You tell them to f off? Its like asking what happens when you're handed a bill that is clearly counterfeit
That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract. If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the or…
I dont understand. Its straight up told that the party giving the money had the longer stick, meaning the party with most to lose had to match the longer stick