High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders • Hacker News Board

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#271

Post by comp_throw7 » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 8:03 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #270

comp_throw7 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting aside the question of the selection effect (which, frankly, seems like it could only realistically go in one direction, unless you want to propose a plausible mechanism by which people with higher than average IQ are _less_ likely to sit for these standardized exams)... You could also spend 5 seconds Googling the question and find that that this is not exactly an untrod ground in academic literature. The rela…

> This does not mean that they are not strongly correlated to IQ. It does not mean they are related or that they aren’t, which only suggests you are missing the point: selection bias. > You could also spend 5 seconds Googling the question and find that that this is not exactly an untrod ground in academic literature. It has been studied exhaustively. The relation between IQ and academic performance is poor according…

We aren't talking about the relation between IQ and academic performance (although that is also clearly established to be significant). We're talking about the relationship between IQ and ACT/SAT scores.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963451/

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf

I certainly don't "need" it to be true - things are either true or they aren't, and needing or wanting differently doesn't change that.

"That correlation is better than a random guess but isn’t anything close to alignment."

Do you want to make a more specific claim? Again, the original claim you're attempting to rebut is "Many test scores (e.g. ACT) are heavily IQ/g-predictive." How strong does the effect need to be? Since, again, nobody is claiming that it's 100% predictive, merely a significant factor. Do you want to give me an effect size? Keep in mind the typical social psychology effect size comes out to r usually between 0.15 and 0.3:

https://psyarxiv.com/2epc4/

https://jenni.uchicago.edu/Spencer_Conference/Representative...

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#272

Post by jw1224 » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

viklove wrote: post #8

jw1224 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am normal, healthy, and a Mensa member. What exactly do you mean by that?

Would you say your membership was worth the fees required to join? What do you get out of being a member?

Haha, absolutely not. I get almost nothing out of it. I sat the exam out of curiosity, but if you qualify and want to join, you have to do so immediately — you can't decide to later on. I've been a member for 3 years, and doubt I'll renew next year.

There's a private Facebook group for members, which has some lively discussion from time to time, but that's about it. To be honest I just posted my earlier comment to stir the pot a little :)

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#273

Post by jw1224 » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 10:01 AM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #23

jw1224 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am normal, healthy, and a Mensa member. What exactly do you mean by that?

The only person I know in Mensa used it in his resume which always grossed me out.

This is a common discussion point amongst members, and almost everybody agrees it's a terrible idea. (Unless you look up the hiring manager in the membership directory first, and see they're a member too...)

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#274

Post by jw1224 » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 10:11 AM UTC

voxl wrote: post #11

jw1224 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am normal, healthy, and a Mensa member. What exactly do you mean by that?

He's saying that, on average, a high IQ person does not find Mensa valuable or interesting and so does not bother to join. Whereas, someone who is lonely, searching community, depressed, etc and _also_ has a high IQ would be more likely to apply and join. The fact that you happen to be normal, healthy, and a Mensa member isn't particular important when speculating about the possible selection bias. Although, we are j…

Yeah, I was well aware what the implication was :) I was just stirring the pot really...

It's always interesting to read the general sentiment towards Mensa members — implying they join out of "loneliness" or "depression" is a hilariously unfounded assumption. I agree that Mensa is fairly pointless overall, but in my experience, its members are generally pretty representative of the general population.

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#275

Post by rendall » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 10:39 AM UTC

SimeVidas wrote: post #138

rendall wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conspiracy thinking doesn't seem to correlate with IQ. I suspect it is an emotional issue.

Conspiracy thinking is correlated with a lack of logic and critical thinking, which are correlated with high IQ.

One would think so, but not so much. MENSA forums are rife with conspiracy theories, as any MENSA member can attest. Anecdata, but shrug. It's all anyone has, AFAIK.

I suspect that high IQ people are in fact more susceptible to conspiracy thinking than most. The randomness of the universe is scary. Sometimes bad things happen to good people for no reason. Much easier emotionally for some to live in a world where things happen for a reason, even if that reason is due to malevolent intent. At least a malevolent conspiracy can be fought or exposed or understood.

IQ measures pattern recognition. If one is mentally ill, or otherwise intent on finding explanations where none exist, one might see patterns where none exist. If you have a high IQ, the more plausible and internally consistent your narratives will be, and since you're generally right about a lot, all the more reason to believe that your theory isn't a theory at all, but reality.

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#276

Post by float4 » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 11:33 AM UTC

bena wrote: post #255

float4 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now imagine your entire life was that. No, because you should shape your life differently in that case. The people I know who were both intelligent and depressed dramatically improved their life by doing less thinking. Exercise, play a musical instrument, explore nature, help people in need, go after that girl/guy you like. But no. Instead, those aforementioned people spent the majority of their time doing stuff th…

What makes you assume that they don't exercise, play an instrument, etc? And why is it on the intelligent to "do less thinking" instead of the world to understand that they can't think on the same level? We don't ask those with extreme physical gifts to sell themselves short in order to accommodate those less gifted. We don't ask those with virtuoso talents to "do less creativity". Why must those with extreme intelle…

> What makes you assume that they don't exercise, play an instrument, etc?

I clearly speak of people I know: "The people I know", "Those aforementioned people". Also, they often did do one, maybe two of these things, but their life wasn't balanced at all.

> why is it on the intelligent to "do less thinking"

The other alternative you offer is hoping that the world will change, which it obviously wont.

> Why must those with extreme intellectual gifts "think less"

Nobody should think too much.

> Why can't we accept them as we accept every other category of people.

Intelligent people are accepted. Understood? Not so much, but they are accepted.

When you're depressed due to your intelligence, you should fix your issues. Learn how to cope with things, talk to a therapist, spend more time doing and less time thinking, talk to people, stop feeling sorry for yourself, take responsibility for your life.

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#277

Post by pizza234 » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 11:46 AM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #96

pizza234 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Update: I'm reading people with (more) negative experiences. I guess YMMV :) Still, I wouldn't draw absolute conclusions based on this. I was a Mensa associate, and participated to evening meetings in two countries (evening meetings are only part of the activities). You're assuming, with "people insecure enough to join an IQ-restricted club", that associates sit on a high horse due to their IQ. It was quite the oppos…

That's interesting. I joined and was immediately turned off by the group. The difference with joining a chess club is you get to play chess. So let's turn your proposal around: What do you get to do in a High IQ club that is different from any random collection of people? Besides talk about how you are in MENSA?

It's disingenous, or, more precisely, rhetoric, to state that there are no correlations at all between people with certain IQ and traits/interests/likemindedness.

You've asked questions of whom you don't have interests in the answer (it's fairly easy to find correlations, in particular, reading the whole conversation), so this classifies as trolling in my opinion. If you had this attitude when you joined the club, I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't been treated friendly.

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#278

Post by pizza234 » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #206

tomjakubowski wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No interest group or club that I've belonged to has ever stuck only to that topic in discussion.

Of course not, but it does provide an easy conversation starter that paves the way for other topics.

Are you referring to the IQ? So, a conversation starter like "Hi! What's your IQ"?

I've never heard it, and I don't think anybody, except people with incredibly poor social skills, would use it.

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#279

Post by wenc » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #96

pizza234 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Update: I'm reading people with (more) negative experiences. I guess YMMV :) Still, I wouldn't draw absolute conclusions based on this. I was a Mensa associate, and participated to evening meetings in two countries (evening meetings are only part of the activities). You're assuming, with "people insecure enough to join an IQ-restricted club", that associates sit on a high horse due to their IQ. It was quite the oppos…

That's interesting. I joined and was immediately turned off by the group. The difference with joining a chess club is you get to play chess. So let's turn your proposal around: What do you get to do in a High IQ club that is different from any random collection of people? Besides talk about how you are in MENSA?

Many who join Mensa are/were developmentally gifted children/adults. For many such folks, finding a peer group with similar experiences (owing to them being precocious, not fitting in, not often meeting people with similar interests -- especially before the advent of the Internet) was/is generally harder (or at least low probability).

Mensa was one avenue where they could bond over those shared experiences with people of like-mind. It certainly wasn't perfect -- gifted children often struggle with loneliness and isolation, and don't have the easiest time with social interactions, hence the manifested social dysfunction in certain local chapters -- but sometimes it works out and they find a community of diverse individuals with whom they relate (as was my case).

Re: High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders

#280

Post by bena » Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

float4 wrote: post #276

bena wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you assume that they don't exercise, play an instrument, etc? And why is it on the intelligent to "do less thinking" instead of the world to understand that they can't think on the same level? We don't ask those with extreme physical gifts to sell themselves short in order to accommodate those less gifted. We don't ask those with virtuoso talents to "do less creativity". Why must those with extreme intelle…

> What makes you assume that they don't exercise, play an instrument, etc? I clearly speak of people I know: "The people I know", "Those aforementioned people". Also, they often did do one, maybe two of these things, but their life wasn't balanced at all. > why is it on the intelligent to "do less thinking" The other alternative you offer is hoping that the world will change, which it obviously wont. > Why must those…

> Intelligent people are accepted. Understood? Not so much, but they are accepted.

Accepted because you conform to a certain societal expectation is not really acceptance. And if they were truly understood

> I clearly speak of people I know: "The people I know", "Those aforementioned people". Also, they often did do one, maybe two of these things, but their life wasn't balanced at all.

So not just anecdotal data, but highly subjective anecdotal data. That's not convincing at all.

> Nobody should think too much.

Nobody should run too fast, lift too much, be too tall, be too short, be too good at anything. Don't ever risk making the average even the slightest bit uncomfortable.