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Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

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21–30 of 88 posts

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#21
From what I understand, even today certain important bills in the UK parliament are entitled to be transcribed onto vellum/parchment(?) if requested by the house. Such that this is one of the few major users of skins still left in our modern age.

edit: this may have been changed just as of a few years ago, on the argument that good quality archival paper practically lasts as long as parchment/vellum, and is much cheaper...

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#22
post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

Is the phrase,"get short end of the stick" originate from this?

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#23
post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

I’ve never understood - what do you do if the tally sticks don’t match? You just know there’s a dispute but it doesn’t resolve the dispute does it? So what next?

My understanding is that these were used as what we currently refer to as treasuries. I.e., debt that the government owes to an investor. So, if you want to lend the government some money, you get half a piece of wood with some notches indicating how much you lent. Then when it is time to collect you go to the government show them your piece of wood and if it matches you get your money plus whatever interest.

So if they do not match the government simply does not give you your money.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#24
post #22
post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

Is the phrase,"get short end of the stick" originate from this?

[deleted]

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#25
post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

So these non-fungible blocks that proved you had a stake... could you maybe trace back the transaction history for a piece of property using some kind of chain of these blocks?

There would be some work required to prove that a particular chain of blocks is the correct one and not another.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#26
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont understand. Its straight up told that the party giving the money had the longer stick, meaning the party with most to lose had to match the longer stick

If I give you $100, and we mark it on a stick, and then split it and give me the longer one, and then I throw away my half and split a new one that says you owe me $200, how do we resolve it when the halves come together and don't match? I say you made a new half-stick, and you say I did. Both parties in a contract can have an incentive to lie.

I think in this case one of the recipients has a monopoly on violence and doesn't care how much money you think they owe you.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#28
post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

Banksy does something similar now: https://reprage.com/post/how-banksy-authenticates-his-work

"So Banksy created a not-for-profit company, Pest Control"

I now want Banksy to name my future endeavors.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#29
post #22
post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

Is the phrase,"get short end of the stick" originate from this?

No. It comes from choosing somebody at random from a whole group. Get thin sticks (branches from any tree), cut them all around 10 cm and one of them cut it shorter (like 5 cm for example). Now hold the entire bunch of sticks in your hand, carefully to have them same height at visible end (hiding in your hand which one is the short one) and let everybody except yourself draw a stick at random. Whoever gets the short one is the one that would do the task at hand. If everybody draws all long sticks you're the one with the short one at the end. Hence the phrasing.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#30

“Device” here is a clickbait. Device means some separate entity which prevents fraud, but these’s no such device. It’s akin saying modern money printers use anti-fraud devices (watermarks).

I would call both watermarks and microprinting "anti fraud devices"
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