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Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

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Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#11

Post by SamBam »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #10
SamBam wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract. If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the or…

I dont understand. Its straight up told that the party giving the money had the longer stick, meaning the party with most to lose had to match the longer stick

If I give you $100, and we mark it on a stick, and then split it and give me the longer one, and then I throw away my half and split a new one that says you owe me $200, how do we resolve it when the halves come together and don't match? I say you made a new half-stick, and you say I did.

Both parties in a contract can have an incentive to lie.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#12

Post by bourgoin »

torstenvl wrote: post #4
rudyfink wrote: post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

So these non-fungible blocks that proved you had a stake... could you maybe trace back the transaction history for a piece of property using some kind of chain of these blocks?

I would guess consuming the amount of wood required to implement such a transaction history might end up proving to have disastrous results on the environment.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#13

Post by function_seven »

bourgoin wrote: post #12
torstenvl wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So these non-fungible blocks that proved you had a stake... could you maybe trace back the transaction history for a piece of property using some kind of chain of these blocks?

I would guess consuming the amount of wood required to implement such a transaction history might end up proving to have disastrous results on the environment.

But proving you have a stake doesn't take that much work, right?

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#14

Post by dylan604 »

function_seven wrote: post #13
bourgoin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess consuming the amount of wood required to implement such a transaction history might end up proving to have disastrous results on the environment.

But proving you have a stake doesn't take that much work, right?

to prove that, you had to rub the block as fast as possible. this heat generated was then used to heat the houses

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#15

Post by [deleted] »

function_seven wrote: post #13
bourgoin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess consuming the amount of wood required to implement such a transaction history might end up proving to have disastrous results on the environment.

But proving you have a stake doesn't take that much work, right?

[deleted]

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#16

Post by MengerSponge »

rudyfink wrote: post #2

As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick ). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock." In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is appar…

Banksy does something similar now: https://reprage.com/post/how-banksy-authenticates-his-work

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#17

Post by wolverine876 »

A better link is the paper itself, which is quite readable, succinct, and much more interesting and informative:

https://heritagesciencejournal.springeropen.com/articles/10....

"Scratching the surface: the use of sheepskin parchment to deter textual erasure in early modern legal deeds"

by Sean Paul Doherty, Stuart Henderson, Sarah Fiddyment, Jonathan Finch & Matthew J. Collins

Heritage Science volume 9, Article number: 29 (2021)

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#18

Post by Spivak »

pushrax wrote: post #9
SamBam wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract. If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the or…

You could split wood more than 2 ways, then register one of the pieces. Or a system of splitting multiple pieces of wood, leaving some for registration. No idea if this is what anyone has done. Signing makes sense.

But if you have a system where you can register the stick then why do you need the stick? Just register the contract with this, apparently trusted, 3rd party.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#19

Post by natch »

Thousands of years ago in ancient China they used chopped segments of bamboo for authentication purposes as well. They would chop a bundle of stalks into two bundles, and one bundle would be held by a (regional) king and distributed to key checkpoints. Then they gave the other, matching, bundle to another kingdom with whom they wanted to communicate.

Later when a messenger wanted to bring a message past a guard station, the messenger would prove their authenticity by presenting a segment of bamboo, which could then be matched up with a corresponding segment held by the guard station.

Apparently this practice and specifically the splitting of the bamboo into two pieces for this purpose is mentioned in the ancient Chinese dictionary, the Shuowen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuowen_Jiezi).

Source: Lao Kan, Chü-yen Han-chien k'ao-shih (居延漢簡考釋) (Decipherment and Critical Studies of the Inscriptions on the Wooden Tablets from Chü-yen). Chungking: Academia Sinica, 1943-44. Ts'e 1-4, shih-wen, I, 81b-82b; ts'e 5-6, k'ao-cheng, I, 32a-34a, cited in Written on Bamboo and Silk: The Beginnings of Chinese Books and Inscriptions, by Tsuen-Hsuin Tsien, University of Chicago Press, 1962; in particular see pages 106 and 110.

Re: Lawyers used sheepskin as anti-fraud device for hundreds of years

#20

Post by Spivak »

SamBam wrote: post #11
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont understand. Its straight up told that the party giving the money had the longer stick, meaning the party with most to lose had to match the longer stick

If I give you $100, and we mark it on a stick, and then split it and give me the longer one, and then I throw away my half and split a new one that says you owe me $200, how do we resolve it when the halves come together and don't match? I say you made a new half-stick, and you say I did. Both parties in a contract can have an incentive to lie.

You have to give both parties incentive to produce the original stick. So if they don’t match then you both lose.

I don’t think all contracts have an obvious both losing state though.

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