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Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

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191–200 of 233 posts

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#191
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a taxpayer, I'm not particularly keen in seeing my money subsidize privately owned firms. Spend-spend-spend should either be done through secured loans, or by the government receiving equity.

Sometimes the govt needs to intervene and provide resources when you want to get things done properly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Press_Program

And sometimes Intel will build fabs in America either way so there's no need to subsidize them.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#192

I'm all for redistributing fab capacity geographically. But I thought it became concentrated in Asia because of the lower cost for high quality engineers due to LCOL. How will Intel change this equation to make it profitable in other geographic regions?

Taiwan and Japan being the giants in the field is due to one thing only: Government policy. Both governments invested heavily in research labs, universities and industry (TSMC was a joint government-Philips venture), setting them up for where they are now. Cost of living isn't relevant here.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has some of the lowest cost of energy / electricity in the world and one of the best rail-freight systems in the world. Our passenger rail sucks and our people are expensive. But significant manufacturing remains in the USA (yes, we manufacture more today than ever before, despite the hoopla about outsourcing). There's a reason for that: USA has some pretty good advantages if you know what to look for.

I (we... us Europeans) often make fun of the US but when shit hits the fan the US often seems to be quite a bit better at actually getting stuff done .

I'd say that's one of the reasons why Europeans are so unhappy with the US. I know I am. They have so much potential to get shit done, but they squander all of that potential.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#194
post #156
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next war will be fought with AI. It's essential the West stays ahead in chip technology, one of the few advantages we still have. It could be the difference between winning or losing a war with China. > tangling their economy up more with that of the West so that they have more reasons not to go to war This strategy failed, China wasn't interested in becoming like the West. We're in a new cold war, it's time peop…

We are in a cold war because, like back in the day with the USSR and the old cold war, China doesn't want to turn into an Asian copy of the US. I'm no fan of PRC but I wish more countries would do the same. Traveling a lot today and you'll see American cultural imperialism everywhere. Besides, we do need another power to compete with the US so it can't do what ever the f** it wants to. Sadly the only real competition…

> I for one would rather see more power on the hands of Russia and PRC if the only alternative were complete Americanization of the world.

America is far from perfect, so many things are broken it is insane, but to prefer to have a stronger Russia or China is bewildering to me. Everything that is bad about America is equally bad or worse in both of those places plus an undeniable loss of liberty. Cronyism, inequality, racism, imperialist tendencies, environmentalism, etc.

I'm not blind to the problems America has, but I've also lived in China and it boggles my mind that people think this way.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#195

Wow he really said that. Kinda stupid if you ask me, people may take it personally. This is why when you mean "We need a more distributed supply chain" you say "we need a more distributed supply chain" and don't single out a geoethnic region.

How is his statement any different from saying too much of our oil comes from the Middle East or too much of our wine from Europe? Or are all those also forbidden statements?

Oil dependence on ME has always been an issue. Guess what the US did... They're now one of the biggest oil producers in the world. What was your argument again?

As for wine, wine isn't as fundamental/crucial to modern civilization as computer chips and oil.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they're worried about China's military so much as China's independence from the rest of the semiconductor supply chain. When you give China a machine, it's only a matter of time before they reverse engineer it and make something slightly worse but much cheaper. This kind of theft is backed by the government. So the expectation that they will remain forever dependent upon ASML is wishful thinking.

> When you give China a machine, it's only a matter of time before they reverse engineer it and make something slightly worse but much cheaper > This kind of theft You called what they did “reverse engineering.” But then you next called it theft. Why? Reverse Engineering is not theft. It’s a follower route, where you build the same thing that someone else had built. You don’t even need their blueprints. You can just…

Compaq did a clean room reverse engineering effort of the IBM BIOS for interoperability. Under US law this is completely legitimate.

China can and should do clean room reverse engineering for whatever technology they want to, and sell the resultant work back to the US (contingent on other IP restrictions of course)

And the US and Netherlands are well within their rights to block equipment equipment to China on grounds that it will be used by a unfriendly military.

The atomic bomb example is not just about "the principle has been proven", it was also a story of Soviet Union spies within the Manhattan Project.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML EUV machines are the combined result of basically everybody in the business except maybe Canon and Nikon. Motorola, AMD, Micron, Infineon, IBM, Intel, Samsung, TSMC, lasers and plasma physics from LLNL.

What happens when China cracks the laser and plasma physics, and builds their own indigenous EUV machine? I hear the last thing standing in their way is the light source from Cymer (sp?).

Sure, China will eventually figure it out. But how many years and decades will that take?

It's likely the semiconductor industry will have moved on by then.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#198
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML only makes a few machines every year, you can't just buy them off the shelf IMHO banning sales of ASML's product to China is chest thumping protectionist nonsense - if you're worried about the rise of China's military then you should be tangling their economy up more with that of the West so that they have more reasons not to go to war rather than driving them to be self sufficient.

The next war will be fought with AI. It's essential the West stays ahead in chip technology, one of the few advantages we still have. It could be the difference between winning or losing a war with China. > tangling their economy up more with that of the West so that they have more reasons not to go to war This strategy failed, China wasn't interested in becoming like the West. We're in a new cold war, it's time peop…

Nobody wound a cold war, everyone ends of worse than if they'd never had one ... "Interesting game, the only winning strategy is not to play at all" .... How about you just admit that China is different from the West, you don't have to make them be like you to be friends with them. And if you trade with them enough that they can't do without you then they have to listen to you when you talk about things like Hong Kong and the Uighers ...

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think National Security might have something to do with manufacturing of electronics moving outside the US. The war on crypto called for manufactures to either provide two versions of their product, or move manufacturing to a place they could export a single product: https://www.eff.org/pages/decrypting-puzzle-palace

So? Don't most manufacturers already have to provide multiple product versions if they sell internationally, to handle different electricity/plug differences around the world (among many other things)? Maybe there is an effect, but it isn't as if products sold worldwide come in one version that works everywhere. Corporations love excuses to differentiate (read: charge more, especially for local captive customers) for…

Most of the electrical power supplies I have these days accept voltages anywhere from 100-250VAC. Its just a matter of having the right prongs on the end for the target market.
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